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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've shot one for about two years now and love it. I even like it better than a 1911 .45. With Plus-P loads, I think the 9mm is just as good as the .45 auto. I've shot lots of critters with lots of different rounds, and it seems to me that speedy bullets that expand rapidly kill better and faster than slower rounds that penetrate deeply. Plus, the .9mm is cheap to shoot, and that is something I love to do.
 

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Well, the FBI shootout in Florida a few years back says you need to have penetration, too. Multiple hits of rounds that expanded rapidly just did not end the confrontation. The secret with the 9MM is matching the bullet design to the target, and of course, shot placement.

If the .45 is too much for the shooter, then 9MM may be the answer. When all is said and done, a hit with a 9MM is better than a miss with a .44!
 

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:D hey guys ,your all right i'd use my .45 first then a .40 s&w second, i would use the 92 lastly with good quality ammo like federal highshocks or 124gr golddot either one will do the job but i always believed in the larger the dia. the more stopping power, and it seems the experts always argue,
but always agree.
kevin
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
My buddy and I did a little testing, his .45 against my Beretta 9mm. You .45 fans may be a little surprised. I know that bullet diameter is a major factor in stopping power, but it doesn't seem like the .45 beats the .9mm in many other departments. The .9mm is much faster, and a smaller bullet diameter gives it a little less resistence, therefore increasing penetration. We set up 4 pine boards in front of a plywood table (that I shoot at alot anyway) and tested a few different loads. With his .45, he tried the Speer Lawman 230 ball, and it penetrated the boards, expanded a little and stuck in the plywood table. We were able to pluck the bullets loose. The .9mm FMJ zipped through the boards, the table, and disappeared in the dirt. The big surprise came when I loaded a few hollowpoints, including winchesters and cor-bon +P's. (both 115 grain). These rounds also zipped right on through the boards and through the table, and buried in the ground behind the table. We recovered several of the bullets, and they were fully expanded.

So, the .45 may have a little more momentum and alot more bullet mass, but it appears to me that it loses out to the .9mm in the penetration department, so I don't think saying the .45 out penetrates the .9mm is a very sound argument. The fact that the .9mm comes out much faster, expands rapidly, penetrates deeper, has less recoil and generally holds more rounds are my arguments for it against the .45.
 

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Ask that guy in New York city about the effectiveness of a 9mm. I believe he shot the intruder in his son's bedroom twice in the chest at point blank range, and the intruder was on the street the next week getting arrested again.

I have a 9mm, I trained on it in the Army. While I believe it is an excellent piece of equipment, it has become my wife's gun. I much prefer the solid reliability of my .45 Sig.

Every time I think about the difference between the 9mm and the .45, I think about the old story of the Maori uprising back around 1900. The .38's the Army issued then didn't stop the crazed warriors charging soldiers, even after several "solid" hits. When they were issued .45 revolvers, those stopped them fast.

If, God forbid, I ever have to shoot someone in self-defense, I'm going to make damn sure he goes down fast and hard. I just don't have that confidence in the 9mm. It has the deterrent factor, but the bite doesn't quite back up the bark.

And my wife wants a .357 now for the same reasons. I swear, I had nothing to do with it. :)

~Robert
Denver, CO
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yeah, but weren't those old revolvers in .38 S&W or .38 Long Colt? Those rounds are ballistically inferior to a standard .38 Special, which a .9mm beats hands down. Also, I believe they were replaced with a .45 Long Colt (but I'm not positive right off hand) and that is an entirely different cartridge than the .45 ACP. I'm not saying the .45 ACP doesn't have stopping power, or even that it doesn't have more stopping power than the .9mm. A big bullet is hard to argue with. But, it seems to me that alot of guys argue in favor of the .45 solely based on emotion and not ballistic facts. I'm sure there's been bad guys shrug off .9mm rounds. But I'm sure there's been bad guys shrug off .45 rounds too. Heck, I've seen deer run a long ways, seemingly unharmed with their hearts blown out by a 180 grain .30-06. Things vary every time a critter is hit with a round. What I'm mainly trying to get at is that I don't think the .9mm gets the respect it deserves because of some biased opinions. (Also, don't think I'm trying to argue or irritate here, just a little friendly debating.)
 

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No, you bring up a valid point. I don't know exactly what variety of .45 it was. I thought it was a .45 revolver, but I'm not sure. I'm fairly confident however that the experiences they had with the older .38 and the .45 revolver led to the developement of the 1911.

I don't argue that the 9mm is a capable round. However, I do think that the stopping power is questionable. It seems to me that many police departments have moved to the .40 S&W because of that questionable power. The few cops that I know nowadays since I've moved carry either .40s or .45s. Not that that's a testimony, but just what I've seen. I generally don't make a habit of asking a cop I don't know what he or she packs. I find it makes them uncomfortable if a stranger starts asking too many questions about their sidearm. :)

And friendly debates is what makes for good drinking buddies.

~Robert
Denver, CO
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I hear you there. My favorite drinking buddy is a 1911 .45 fan, and we have quite a few debates. He's actually been in a gunfight before, (he had a .44 magnum blackhawk, badguy had a Kel-tec P-32) and fortunately he wasn't hurt, and the badguy only had his arm shot off at the elbow. Anyway, we have our debates, we both have valid arguments, and they are fun. One thing we both agree on though--we don't like the .40 S&W. No valid reason really, I'm sure it's a good round, but it gives us something in common to gripe about. Anyway, my CCW piece isn't my .9mm most of the time anyway, I usually carry a Taurus titanium .44 special with silvertips. To defend my pride, that's probably as close as I'll ever come to carrying a .45!
 

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9mm vs 45

:D
I'm new to this forum and am really impressed by the breadth and depth of knowlege here.
I am on the military ridge line of 60 and have been as shooter since I was old enough. Among the products of my addiction are a rebuilt Systema Colt 45 ACP, a Kimber 45 ACP, and a Sig 2000 in 9MM. I feel comfortable carrying any of the three. My Kimber and Sig are both hi caps and I think that is an important factor in an armed conforntation. Let me point out that I do not advocate spray and pray. But the more controlled, lead generated downstream the better. I favor the 45 because it hits a bit harder and doesn't over penetrate - which means it imparts the majority of it's energy in the target. The 9MM is my next choice. In the penetration department I once read that hitting someone with a 9 is like stabbing them with an ice pick. It will kill them but it might take a while. IMHO the real difference resides in the hand, eye, and heart of the shooter.
I work for the DOD and carry a 92 FS every day. It is a fine weapon and I am comfortable with it. I am also comforted by the fact that if the job is too big for the 9MM I can resort to an 870 with double ought buck.
Thanks for letting me participate. You guys are a great resource.
Smitty 308
 

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First, I have a model 92 and two 1911's. While the Beretta is a masterpiece of workmanship, undeniably reliable and carries a lot more rounds, my vote goes with the 45. As the old man asked, would you rather be hit by a fast ball thrown by Nolan Ryan or a 16 lb bowling ball heaved by Hulk Hogan? Also, I remember reading a post years ago by a prison guard. His job was to process new guests of the state. When they stripped, many of the inmates had healed holes in their bodies. He got in the habit of asking what caused the holes; there were many 32's, 38's 380's and 9's. He then went on to say he'd never had one answer the cause of the body decoration was from a 45.
 

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beretta

I carry both the 1911 tricked out colt 70 series, a 92fs that I can find nothing to do to it (other than the long pu;; on double action). These are my car carry pieces. My on person is a snubby 38 sp, which I am thinking of going to the Taurus 2" 44 sp. Ilike both guns as they both have a long tradition of testing behind them. The spec of a 9mm are surprising. It was like comparing a 270 to my 7mm mag, not that far apart overall. I guess I would rather take my chances with Hulk Hogan heaving a 16 lbs bowling ball at me than Noylan firing a fast ball at me.
Jim
 

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Let's see

if we can fuel this debate up a notch or 5. As I understand it the FBI shootout in Miami, it failed due to the ammo used, the Winchester Silvertips. As for the 9mm in general, those PDs who use a 9mm and I think it's the Remington +P+, that is a 115 grain HP bullet at 1250'/sec, find it quite reliable and have stayed with it. In the past when we reloaded for the 9mm that was the load of choice, as it worked.

The 38 S&W with the 200grain load was quite a reliable stopper but it was considered inhumane at the Hague Convention and downloaded to an ineffective 177 grain RN bullet. The 38 long colt was not. I believe the 38s used in the uprising were the long colt and 45s were also in the long colt caliber and that may be what prompted the develoment of the 45 acp.

I personally knew a couple of Army Officers in RVN who were shot through the heart with a 45 from an M3 grease gun and lived. The increased velocity gave it similar penetrability to some of the 9mm wounds my dad, an army physician, saw in WWII, where the GI was shot through the heart by a 9mm, whether pistol or sub-gun, but the bullet penetrated trhough and through without causing much damage due to its smaller diameter and higher velocity. Note, in these cases the bullets slipped inbetween the ribs and did not shatter either rib or chestplate and send bone splinters into the chest.

I used the Browing HP 9mm in RVN and found it to be about as effective as a 45 - had to shoot twice as ball ammo from either caliber simply penetrated through and through and unless major bone was hit or the Central Nervous System disrupted, the other guy simply did not get flung back or immediately fall down. They sort of sagged and dropped. Even the 38 spl with 130 grain ball ammo had the same effect.

If you use the same type of bullet from either the 9mm or the 45 acp you will get about the same effect on a human adversary. Basically, you have to shoot to defend yourself the same way you hunt predatory animals - you need to break a major bone structure, like shoulders or chestplates, and disrupt major organs or destroy the major elements of the central nervous system such as the spine or brain, to get them to stop immediately.

Personally, I don't care for the aftereffects of a defensive shooting. The nausea, bladder and bowel problems don't stop after the shooting has stopped - they continue on through the follow-up police actions and subsequent courtroom proceedings and even after. It never made me wonder if I shouldn't have shot, it only makes me wonder when it will all end and when people (cops included) stop looking at you like you're a bloodthirsty killer.

Whatever you use or carry you have to be good enough with to put at least two throught the chestplate in a dead-on confrontation during the most intensively stressful situation you can (never) imagine, and you never wait for the other guy to drop his gun and give it up. You have to take him down and out if you want to survive and that almost always means more than one or two shots, no matter what the caliber. Hollywood does not apply to real life.

So, in the end, you have to practice. Never practice shooting to kill, but always practice shooting to live. Mikey.
 

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Well said Mikey. I believe the reason the 40 S&W was developed was to take advantage of the best qualities of the 45 ACP and 9mm. The 10mm Auto was adopted by the FBI only to be replaced because the Cold Delta Elete's slides were breaking. The 40 S&W came after that and was to a 10mm what a 38 is to a 357 Mag. The less intense 40 S&W puts about the same energy on the target as a 45 ACP and penitrates a little better. That is the text book answer but the proof is in the pudding. I have a 45 Commander and a full size 45 Series 70. I also have a 92FS. I'm very happy with all of them.
 

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I've had a 92fs inox for about two years now, and i've ran about 3,000 rounds of several different types of ammo through it. I have yet to experience any type of malfunction whatsoever. I find the gun to be very accurate shooting two hand combat at 25 yards. At 100 yards, I could hit a square foot metal target on average 3 out of 5 times from a bench rest. While I am by no means an expert handgunner, I am confident in the quality of my Beretta.
 

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92fs

While this has been a long post, I am happy to see some 92 posters. Myself I like the gun. I out of habbit save the brass, even though 115 gn fnj is really cheap/ with win brass. So I decided to reload for it(its a hobby) Does any one on this board reload for this? If so what do you recommend? I have plenty of plinkers, want defense loads. I practice with my series 70, and the 92 alot with full loads.
Jim
 

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Jim,
I load Speer 115gr JHP's or TMJ's with 6.0 gr of Unique. They shoot and cycle excellent in my 92 FS. By the way, if you want more 9mm brass, I have a bag of 2000 or more free. All you have to do is drive about 100 miles to get them.
 

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92fs

Iowegan
Thanks for the offer , I have several hundered now. I am not sure why I am going to reload 9mm but will try hard cast. Would like your input on a 243, I have that may need a new barrel. Enjoy the weather.
Jim
 

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Good discussion everyone! Most probably won't agree, but I think Smitty308 hit it right on the head. A person's mindset, determination to survive, and training is just as important, if not more so, than what kind of gun he has, or what kind of ammo is in it. Anyone who carries a firearm should practice enough so that the mechanics of drawing, firing and shot placement is second nature. You MUST be aware of your surroundings, fully prepared, mentally, to take another human being's life if necessary, absolutely confident that you WILL win a gunfight, and determined not to quit untill you have won. God forbid any of us should ever have to use deadly force to protect ourselves, but any hessitation at the moment of truth, and you could wake up dead.
 

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Well, I have a question.
I have read all of the above and the pros and cons of the .45 etc compared to the 9mm.
The gun of question here is the Beretta FS, right?
Well, it occurs to me that the US Military is in the business of anti-personell. Now they have no budget to contend with as far as what they spend on weapons nor ammunition.
Since they are in the business of killing,,,,,,,,er,,,,,,stopping, people, why did they decide to use the FS as their issue sidearm and not some of the others mentioned.
Keep in mind, I just bought an FS and am kinda on a honeymoon with it so I might be somewhat biased.
I am also as green as they come concerning guns in general.
I went to my gunsmith, friend, who has a big supply of arms.
I went in to buy a .45. He told me since I already had a Ruger P944 that I needed something smaller and cheaper to shoot. He showed me the FS. It was love at first sight. Especially when he told me it was LNIB condition, added three hi cap mags, a set of Hogue grips along with the original and gave me a one year "in his shop" no fault guarantee.
I gave him the $450.00 and he gave me the gun. I feel a bit guilty about the price, not guilty enough to take it back or anything, just guilty. :oops:
Done deal. It is smooth as silk, fast as I can pull the trigger and helps me live up to my signature.
Thanks for the time.
 

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Every decision is a trade off on some criteria. Yes, the Army selected the model 92 FS, yes, it's an excellent pistol, of that there is no doubt. What is not advetised is the military was under an obligation to the rest of NATO at the time of adoption. What an easy trade off with a seemingly insignifant weapons system and caliber! Pistols in the military are customarially a symbol of authority, not withstanding the times it may be used in a self defense situation. There is no doubt the "door-kickers" prefer a 45 ACP pistol; note the 45 H&K of the Special Ops boys and the 1911 platform the FBI has for the Hostage Rescue Team. The boys that "DO" have a varient of a 1911, or at least the caliber thereof. Most of the time, a pistol hangs from a holster on the side of an M-60 assistant gunner, platoon leader or company commander (note, the TO&E gives the plt ldr an M-16 and he "trades" it for convienence). Don't get me wrong, the Beretta is a fine pistol. As a former director of the Army's Weapons Training Department at the Ordance Center and School at Aberdeen, MD, I bought one myself. I like it, but if recalled to active duty today in a combat zone, I'd absolutley prefer a 45ACP shooter, either in a 1911 platform, or even a Glock with tritium sights.
 
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