Graybeard Outdoors banner

1 - 20 of 51 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
922 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I started reading the specs on a 223 AI and i think i want to do this to my 223 barrel. I'm not sure if the handi will handle it or what all is really involved. Can anyone help me out.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
50,973 Posts
Drew, if you do a search for Akley or AI, you'll get some enlightening info from previous discussions, it apparently works great in Handis with rimmed calibers, but not with rimless.

Tim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
922 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
thanks quick but it looks like i'm having some problems with my 223. If i can't get it to shoot better than it did the last time i took it to the range it's gonna go off to the gunsmith in oregon to be rechambered and rebored. Can you say 7-30 waters :wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,439 Posts
Varminter said:
I started reading the specs on a 223 AI and i think i want to do this to my 223 barrel. I'm not sure if the handi will handle it or what all is really involved. Can anyone help me out.
there is some truth to the notion that 'improving' a chamber can lead to problems in some instances with the use of standard, factory loads in such a rifle. it's a problem if the neck/shoulder junction on the 'improved' chamber is a little too far forward in a chamber to allow a standard variation of the cartridge to bump its shoulder up against the neck/shoulder junction of the chamber. a handloaded, standard round (such as a .308) can be developed with a 'false shoulder' that can help with use in an 'improved' chamber, but it is time-consuming to do such handloading.

if a rifle is relatively short-chambered, however, and if the 'improved' reamer is not turned in too far, the results can be positive.

if you want to Possibly get past problems with your .223 -- if your rifle/scope/shooting technique/etc. are in good order -- try a different propellant in your handloads, and possibly also try a different primer. while it's true that most of us would change a projectile to achieve different results out of a rifle (if accuracy was poor for example), it's also true that a propellant change can greatly help with some problems.

good luck,

ss'
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
922 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
As of yet i don't handload for the 223 but i thought if this conversion was possible i would start loading for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,439 Posts
what kind of problems are you having?

i'd be interesting in offering an opinion, but will tell you up front that rechambering may not be the answer.

i'll check on this topic again later.

i'm going offline for a while.

ss'
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
50,973 Posts
Drew, I can't really offer any help, don't know that much about it, or I would have.....the main reason I replied was your question had gone unanswered for 10 days and I figured you deserved an answer, so I revived it, hopefully those that are knowledgeable about Ackleyizing a Handi will help out....Here's one of those threads I mentioned....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=32431&highlight=ai

Tim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,878 Posts
I'll offer this bit of advice ...ask a reputable gunsmith familiar with the Handi rifle's action..and has done the Ackley improved cartridges before...and ask for references while your at it...so you can talk to whoever he did the work for...there are Improved cartridges...then there are AI cartridges...and they are different...

Additionally...it's not a cheap proposition converting to another...but it is a way of getting something quite unique to a Handi...just make sure it stays with-in the pressure curve...and it should be ok....A 7-30 Waters is a mighty fine cartridge...and should be a fine addition to the Handi rifle lineage...I'd say go for this over a A.I. cartridge any day of the week...

Mac
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
922 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Here's the story...............
When i first got my 223 heavy barrel i did everything that is recommended to do to these little rifles. Polish the chamber, o-ring, "bed" the scope rail, etc. Well my first trip to the range was great. I was getting under an inch groups at 100 yards.

Now as of last weekend it won't do better than 4" at 100 yards. Nothing has happened to the rifle. It's just sit in the gun safe since the first time i took it to the range(last fall). As i checked the targets i couldn't believe what had happened. So i went back and checked the the rings and base on the rifle, all was tight. So i shot again. Same result nothing better than 4" I think it might be a bad scope but i'm not sure can anyone suggest anything?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,439 Posts
Varminter'

when you put the rifle away at the end of the last season, did you leave the bore anointed with a solvent that might have allowed the copper fouling to move toward either the muzzle or the chamber (depending upon how you store the rifle)? in other words, i'd give the rifle a very good cleaning with a bronze brush and some Birchwood Casey "Bore Scrubber". i would take my time scrubbing the bore repeatedly to remove all metal fouling. this can be done repeatedly over a couple days. why? because i've had problems with fouling migrating to the end of a barrel and then throwing off the accuracy....since i mistakenly allowed it to build up so much at the muzzle that you couldn't tell the barrel was rifled! i kept 'cheating' on my cleaning technique 'til the rifles had to be thoroughly scrubbed. (i used to stand my rifles up on the muzzle in a soft-bottomed container so the solvent wouldn't get into the action/frame)

but, the accuracy was restored in those rifles. they came back to 'as new' condition after being scrubbed out religiously over a few days.

ss'

ps: make sure when you fire your rifle/handgun that the bore is always dry. it may not be scrubbed absolutely clean of powder fouling, but it must be dry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
922 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
When last season ended it was cleaned vigorously and the bore was dry when i put it away. and it's set in my safe since then.

I know its not the ammo i was using because when i first got the rifle i used the winchester 45gr. HP and they shot great. Now i with the same ammo nothing better than 4". Do you think it could be the scope.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,087 Posts
what about the crown ???? a $25 crown job is a lot cheaper then a rebore and rechamber
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
922 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Mitch that is one thing that totally slip my mind. is there anyway i can tell if something happened to it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,087 Posts
well i'm no expert but if it has any kind of a scratch on it , it will shoot bad . there is a way tat you can tell by the splash on the muzzle but i'm not to sure how . you may want to go ask the gunsmith guys how to spot a bad crown.



but in your case its the only thing that makes since to me .
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
50,973 Posts
Here's the muzzle pattern that shows a uniform crown..... hard to see on all but a stainless barrel, though....



One of the ways to check a crown is to run a Q-tip cotton swab around the edge of the bore at the muzzle, there should be no cotton fibers pulled off the swab and left on the muzzle. The edge of the bore should be crisp and smooth with no burrs or flat spots.

Tim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
922 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Thanks Quick. I'll do that and try to post a pic of the crown on the barrel here in a little bit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,346 Posts
There is no way to properly rechamber a Handi to .223 AI. This comes from conversations with Ackley's shop in the mid 80s; because of the change in shoulder angle, the only way for factory ammo to headspace is at the neck/shoulder junction rather than on the datum line on the shoulder. To properly clean up the original chamber, the neck/shoulder juncture must be moved forward slightly; this will obviously result in excess headspace with factory ammo. The only way that Ackley's shop would rechamber a barrrel to an AI cartriidge was to set the barrel back one thread and then cut a correct chamber. Since this can't be done with a Handi, factory ammo will exhibit some excess headspace. This is one reason for poor accuracy and case life with some "bootleg" AI rechambers.

Of course if one sizes the cases for the longer AI chamber then it is like any other wildcat. But Ackley touted his Improved chambers as being able to safely fire factory ammo, and they will - if the barrel had been set back first.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
50,973 Posts
Lone Star, how about rechambering the .223 to .22-250AI, or maybe a .308 to 30-06AI ??

Thanks for the detailed explanation, that's about the best I've seen!

Tim
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,973 Posts
Everything that Lone Star says about this is correct. How nice it would be
if we could take the .280 with the 26" barrel and Ackley it but we can't,
at least without risk.
Quickdtoo you could do this with the rounds that you mentioned but the
way that you need a good crush-fit in the chamber when you close the
action makes it a little harder with the Handi Rifle because you don't have
the camming action of a bolt action.
I use Handi Rifles alot & like them but I think the Ackley rounds are best
reserved for bolt guns or Encore barrels that are chambered that way from the factory.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
50,973 Posts
I personally can't see that AI-ing a .308 to 30-06 yields much of a gain, but thought I'd ask for another poster that was interested in a possible rechamber for his .308, that's about his only non-magnum option. Now the .223 to 22-250( or AI) would be a substantial gain in performance.

Tim
 
1 - 20 of 51 Posts
Top