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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello All!

I'm new to this forum and just wanted to share a few pics and maybe get some additional information on a recently acquired drilling. It is my dad's, but I am the caretaker being a vintage shotgun collector and shooter. I've been able to decipher most all of the markings on the gun save one: the large "75" on the barrel flats of the 16ga tubes. The chambers measure out to 2.75+ inches on my gauges, and it is obviously nitro proofed, but from what I could find in Wirnsberger's directory shouldn't they be stamped "70" (for 70mm or 2.75") if proofed for that shotshell length?

Any information on the maker or the "75" proof marks would be appreciated.

Enjoy,
Cyril



















 

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cbodnar said:
... a few pics ... a recently acquired drilling.
Geeeze! ::) Your first post and I hate you already! ;) :D

It is my dad's,
Was this a WWII bring back maybe? ???
 

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Cyril

that is a great looking drilling. The enraving is fantastic.

Aug Jung was the maker and this gun was made in Viernau in Nov 1939. The rifle is a 7x57r . It has a stags horn trigger guard and I would guess shotgun extractor and rifle extractor.

Looking at the 75 and the wood, the 75 appears to be different than the rest of the proofs. I would guess the gun was restored at some point and 16 ga cambers where opened to 3 inches.

thanks

Doug






Do you have the scope?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Geeeze! ::) Your first post and I hate you already! ;) :D
Ahhh... I know the feeling! And thanks for the "ribbing." ;)


Was this a WWII bring back maybe? ???
It's possible. But I don't think the original owner (who just recently gave it to my dad as a gift) knows the origin of this particular gun other than it came down to him from his father. I'm just not sure if it would have come here and then gone back overseas for what appears to be a reproof in 2/74. I may be wrong, but the average American shooter would likely be more inclined to just have a local gunsmith make any changes and then not worry about proof requirements because they are not required in the USA (my speculation).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Doug, you are correct on all counts. I noticed the horn triggerguard right away as I have run into this material on other guns I own.

Some things I didn't mention in my first post: a) the gun has a set trigger for the rifle barrel which is available when the top selector is in the proper position; b) the barrel length is 23 5/8 inches;and c) the chokes are, as best as I can measure at the moment, a very tight (European-ish) Mod and Full combo. Or maybe I should say almost Full and XFull? ;)


Do you have the scope?
Unfortunately not. [Sigh.....]

The original owner discarded the scope and claw mounts apparently due to recent flood damage/rust before he passed it along to my father. I am looking to have this omission remedied in the near future. I was looking to check with Joseph LeBas at LeArmes, but I just saw that he retired not too long ago. I will probably call the folks at NECG and see what their thoughts are on the project. I have worked with them before, and have had good results. I may also check with Doug Turnbull as he is only an hour away, and has also done exceptional work for me in the past. Additional suggestions are welcome.

Finally, I am still guessing at the reason for the '75' proof mark. If this gun was re-proofed in 2/74, as it appears, could it really have been proofed for a 3" shotshell. I've never seen one commercially, but I suppose it could have been proofed at a corresponding 'pressure', or for 2.75 inch shells at USA type SAAMI specs and that is how they marked it on acceptance. Who knows the specifics... but I would sure like to find out the answer!
 

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All my drilling work is done by JJ Perodeau http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=37
JJ was highly recommended by Drillingman, and Drillingman was right on the money as usual with the recommendation.

Figure a scope mount is going to run $600 plus the scope.

I am researching the 75 and the 274 which will take a few days.

You have a great gun....

Your pictures are amazing, would it be possible for you to post a primer on how to take high quality pictures?

thanks

Doug
 

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3" is 76mm not 75... AND there were some 76mm 16ga ammo made... it just never caught on. It was designed for better patterns, not to be higher powered ammo.

DM
 

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Cyril
It appears that the drilling was proofed #274 in October 1939 in Zella-Mehlis proofhouse. I have asked some friends about the 75 it appears that the drilling might have been originally chambered for 3 inch 16 ga shells.

here is the Zella-Mehlis link for the proofhouse http://www.adamsguns.com/zm.htm

Doug
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It appears that the drilling was proofed #274 in October 1939 in Zella-Mehlis proofhouse.
Doug, I saw the reference to the Zella-Mehlis method of marking the proof 'order' in Wirnsberger's book, but I haven't seen any prior examples that showed the difference between that specific marking and another (second) regular proof submission and acceptance and didn't want to claim that to be the case. I was looking for a proof house stamp example for Zella-Mehlis to check out that possibility, but could not find one in the book or online. If there is one on the barrel, I would love to know which one it is!

Thanks to both you and Drilling Man for the information on the existance of 3" 16ga ammo. That is the first I have heard about it, having previously read in books that the 16ga was only chambered in the commonly seen 2 1/2", 2 9/16", 2 3/4 etc. I am always happy to learn something new online! That is a real benefit of forums like this one.

As for the pictures, well... I do a lot of semi-pro photography (it's just not my primary job). There was no 'special' setup, just some common multi-flash usage and an appropriate backdrop (white cardboard appliance box in this case). When I get a little free time I would be happy to give some photo examples with explanations of how I did it. In any event, thank you for the compliment. ;D
 

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Cyril,
typically there would be a ZM on the barrels for the Zella-Mehlis proof house. In the adsense of the ZM, the script Nitro mark with the Eagle proofs indicate Zella Mehlis.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Doug,

Thanks for the clarification on the Zella-Mehlis proof house info!

I also appreciate the memory jog about J.J. Perodeau at Champlin Arms. He did some barrel hook work for me some five years ago on an English gun (sorry, guys) and it completely skipped my mind. It's definitely worth giving him a call on the scope and mounts. The $600.00 plus scope cost does seem to be the prevailing price discussed online for this kind of work.
 

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A really great gun. As for the "75" marking, I think Drilling Man is right: the Germans are famously precise and all the 3" chambered guns (mostly 20s) that I have seen were marked "76." But it IS a drilling and they were also famous for custom work and odd chamberings, so anything is possible. 3" 16s just didn't seem to catch on anywhere; they are just as rare in the US as in Europe.

The 3" 20 was around from the turn of the 19th century in a very few production guns (the first Stevens pump and the shotgun version of the Winchester 1885 single shot come to mind) and a very few custom doubles. Then in the 1960s it became super-popular so that there are few 20s chambered for the shorter shells any more. Personally I have never liked the 3" 20 much and use 2 3/4" shells in all my 3" chambered 20s.
 
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