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It does kinda sum it up nicely. Gotta wonder about the possibilities with a bayonet, though!
 

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gotta wonder

Very interesting. I wonder how many hours I logged packing a 12 ga pump on salmon streams. That's mostly what ADFG issues staff in the field for much of the state. I've talked to a few fishing guides who claim they tried slugs and buck on dead bears and penetration was nil to poor. At the same time there is a guy here in town who killed a brown bear in the head with #6 duck load as it tried to get in his cabin - but it wsn't charging. Another guy I know killed a charging brownie with his 308, and rumor has it another bear was killed with a 1911 45 acp -but I've never asked the guy to confirm it.

Think I'll send that url to my game biologist friend. He may be able to find out how many bears have been stopped by shotguns - shoot the state keeps highly detailed records of every bear kill.

Still it makes me glad I obtained some .338 for my crews a few years ago.

thanks for the post Dave.
 

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MODERN SHOTGUN SLUGS

Gentlemen,
Lions have been successfully, and safely taken with .44Magnum revolvers. MODERN shotgun slugs have very much more power than anything that may be loaded into .44Magnum revolvers.

I believe I'll wait for JJ's comments on this one!
 

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More on 12 ga

I talked to my biologist friend. He doesn't think the ADFG has a database regarding bears shot with buckshot or slugs. He read the African article and has serious doubts it would apply to Alaskan animals. He says the moose and bears he's seen shot with slugs sustained a lot of damage. He is not sure how effective buckshot would be. Probably still comes down to an individual's gun handling ability. Those who are good with shotgun might be best served by that arm while those who know their rifles should stick with a rifle.

That's the case with me. The one time I thought I was going to shoot a bear with a shotgun, I came to realize that I really didn't know the gun - had a heck of a time switching shells in it. After that I bought my own pump gun and made a point of practicing with it enough to know how to operate it in a tight situation.
 

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Unaware vs. Alert/Wounded

The main content of this article involves TRACKING and FINISHING those large and dangerous game that are already wounded.... with most that have gotten that "adrenalin rush" that minimizes the effects of "shock" from subsequent shots. This brings a WHOLE NEW SET OF RULES into the ball game.

I've used slug-guns almost exclusively for deer hunting for over 30 years now since I hunt on a military reservation where only slug-guns and muzzle loaders are permitted as firearms for hunting deer. Over these years I've had the opportunity to watch the effects of slugs, even the newer Nosler Partition Gold on deer size game. The main thing I've been able to verify myself is the difference between an animal being non-alert or feeding/browsing vs. being on FULL ALERT or WOUNDED. I use to concentrate on the "heart-lung behind the shoulder shot" until I've had deer travel up to 100+ yards literally DEAD ON THEIR FEET with their hunts and lungs completely "evaporated" by the slug that hit them. Now I try to concentrate on shot placement in the shoulder or neck junction that severes or interupts the spinal column nerve system. This change in aiming point has resulted in most game (9 of 10) dropping where they stand or only ONE reflexive jump. A good shoulder hit also usually takes out the lungs too, so the animal expires soon after dropping with little or no tracking involved.

A retired doctor that got me started bow-hunting explained it to me this way. Once an animal (or human) has gone to an "alert" or "flight-or-fight" status the amount of adrenalin in his blood supply is raised to a very high level. If this animal is then shot with a normal heart-lung shot, the brain sends the "flight response" signals to the muscles and they react on "instict" alone. They will continue to function until the oxygen content in the blood supply is exhausted. The muscles use the oxygen in the blood and convert it into the energy required to "fire" the muscle responses. This means that an animal that is "dead on its feet", but not "brain-dead" can continue to flee or attack until the oxygen supply IN THE BLOOD is exhausted. The only way to STOP THIS ANIMAL with a follow-up shot is to hit the animal in such a way that you damage or shock the NERVOUS SYSTEM from sending signals from the brain to the muscles or break bones in such a manner that the animal is no longer able to support its weight or run.

Shooting an animal that is relaxed and unaware it is being stalked or hunted is entirely different. Without the adrenalin in the blood supply, it may only travel a short distance or not at all once it is hit in a vital heart/lung area. A shoulder or neck shot will often transfer enough energy to the spinal cord to stop the transmission of the "flight" nerve signals from reaching the muscles or give time for any adrenalin to enter the blood stream to extend the muscle functions. Hence, the large amount of variation in the reactions of various game once they are shot. If the first shot is placed in such a manner that it also "shocks" the nervous system with serious damage or even temporarily so the loss of blood can have its affect and "kill the brain", then the animal will often drop where it was hit or only travel a very short distance before expiring.

Once the animal is wounded, you have an entirely different situation, especially with large or dangerous game like big cats, bear, moose and other large African game like Rhinos and Elephants. In this case the follow up shot has to normally either shatter major supporting bones or effect the nervous system in such a way that it STOPS ALL NERVE/MUSCLE RESPONSES. This normally requires a LARGE, HIGH-ENERGY bullet that gives both high penetration and energy transfer, not to mention PROPER AND ACCURATE PLACEMENT.

Wow, I can't believe I wrote all that.
:D :eek: :shock: :lol: :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
L-Roy

I think the main point of the article is not that a shotgun can't do the job, but the bullet/slug if a Foster is used, can't do the job. They are almost pure lead and deform on anything.

Two cases:

A: I had a slug for a well known manufacture that was loaded sideways in the case. There so soft they can be loaded sideways in the case.

B: I hit a button buck from less than ten yards yards once. He ran off and I found half of the slug under where he was standing with a little cartaliage on it. We only found hair, not a single drop of blood. Two weeks latter someone accidently found it while 8 of us 2 weeks earlier could not. It was a good front shoulder hit.

Cetainly at times, Fosters are great and I have shot a lot. But the Brenneke slugs are much harder and therefore do not deform as much. The Alaska State Troopers did a study on wounded moose and now carry Brenneke slugs. I have tried to find the report but can't.

Does anyone out there have a hardness tester and can test several slugs out to see if there is a real noticable difference between Fosters and Brenneke slugs? I would love to see someone produce a dangerous game slug load. I contacted someone once and he said he could cast some up and increase the hardness for me. I don't reload shotgun so it was no use to pursue any farther.
 

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shotgun slugs

There are all kinds of shotgun slugs and it is unfair to lump them together as far as performance. I have shot some of the Winchester sabot slugs that are awesome. It is a 390 gr, jacketeted 50 caliber bullet @1900fps.
Compare that to a 500 Linebaugh revolver shooting a similar weight bullet at about 1400fps. Accuracy is good out of a rifled barel beyond 100yd's too.
Mike C
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Mike

Have you ever taken one apart to examine it? I would be interested in the design.....hollow like a Foster or solid without a skirt.

I never messed with the Saboted rounds as my slug gun had a modified choke. Funny since they have been around since before 1968! I wish some gun writer would do some penetration/retained weight/velocity/energy tests and publish the data.
 

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Never used a slug on a bear. to be honest I dont carry a shotgun and I dont even own one (in my name that is), my wife has 3 but I dont use them. I'll stick to my rifles. Nothing agaisnt the shotgun because I dont have any real world expieriance with it but I 'll carry what I'm comfortable with. If it wasnt for gravity I couldnt hit the ground with a shotgun. No gun is 100% at stopping a mad critter so carry what ever is comfortable.
 

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Slugs and bears

Contacted Brenneke a few months back via their web site. Very informative German gentleman said their is a great difference between Brenneke slugs. First they make them different hardnesses based on the size and velocity. For example, their 3" Super Magnum was intended for large and dangerous game while their 2 3/4" Heavy Field Magnum was made for deer sized game. In general the heavier the slug the harder it was. They use different alloys in making these slugs.

Also, their are many ammuntion companies using the Brenneke slugs but most are of the softer design.

He also reports that police officers in Canada and Alaska have given favorable feedback on on the 1 and 3/8 Oz. slug (Super Magum Golds and Silvers) and their effectivness on Brown bear at close range.

The problem I have found is finding them in Alaska. He gave me an address to buy them from a guy in Anchorage --just haven't made my way there yet this year. Maybe next month.
 

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Slugs and bears

Lilbigun

He called it a company. I am not sure if it is a company or just an individual's name but here it is:

V.F. Grace, 605 East 13 AVE.
Phone # 907-272-6431

He also told me they ordered a good supply of the Brenneke Super. Again, this was back in October when I first contacted The Brenneke sales rep. I do not know for sure if this Anchorage business is still operating. Hope this helps.
 

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Balto & lilbiggun:

Somewhere out in the shop I have a box of 12 ga Brenneke slugs that I picked up in Oklahoma City several years ago. (Don't know what they weigh). I've got so many irons in the fire I'll probably not use 'em for several more years. If either or both of ya'd like to try a dozen or so, let me know. [I'll be back in OKC March 10-14th; that shop may still have some]
 
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