Graybeard Outdoors banner

1141 - 1160 of 1173 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,794 Posts
M&T,

I realize this model of the 10 Inch 18 Ton Gun will not rifled, but had a question about rifling and was hoping you might have some information. I know this gun had Woolwich rifling with 7 grooves and that it fired both studded and studdless shells.

It seems there were two types of rifling, the Woolwich and Polygrove in the big British Guns. Woolwich seems to appear on the earlier guns that fired studded shells and later studdless. Polygrove appears to be a later development and used with studdless rounds fitted with automatic gas checks.

Woolwich rifling had fewer groves on the big guns and Polygrove had almost 3 times as many groves.

My assumption is that the studs on the sides of the shell were large and therefore the guns that fired these shells needed wider groves in which the studs engaged the rifling. Wider groves meant you could only have so many in the gun. Once copper gas checks were developed and studdless shells came about, gun designers no longer had to design around the studs and could add move groves. More groves meant better rotation increasing range and accuracy. This is probably a very elementary understanding and was hoping you might be able to shed some light on the subject.

As an aside, does anyone have a gas check as part of their collection? I imagine they are rare and hard to find and expensive too.

250894
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,142 ·
Tom, we have not had the time to improve our understanding of the rifling nor gas checks on these cannon. All that we have right now is associated with the photos of the shell and bolt drawings in our reference files on the build postings. The only photo which may give you additional info. is the one posted below. Look at the shape of the lands. What is that all about??

Tracy and Mike


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,794 Posts
Maybe to add to Douglas’ reply, the top row of studs and the bottom do not align vertically so that it can travel through the rifled groves. And as Douglas states the tapered lands make it easier to load the shell by giving a little play.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,145 ·
Double D., Not really to align, but rather to shunt the projectile over toward the driving edge of the rifling as it is pushed toward the bore's bottom. The general name given to all rifling with this feature is "Shunt Rifling". Sometimes there is one series of shunts, sometimes two and sometimes three. While inspecting the 150 pounder Armstrong 8 In. Gun at Fort Fisher in North Carolina on loan to them by the U.S. Army at West Point in 2006, we discovered that it had three distinct series of shunts, the last of which was only 3 feet above the chamber. That was an extremely complex form of rifling in that it started the shell out in a deeper and wider groove and as it was shunted along down the bore, it gradually was moved into a shallower and narrower groove, with the shallowest part right alongside the driving edge of the rifling.

Inspecting that rifling can only be described by one word and that word is commonly used to describe a female dog. Now THAT would have been really something to prove your machining ability, making a miniature Tube having all the features of that one! We think that making a two-part Tube such as the British "Screw Gun" has, would actually be the easier of the two to accomplish.

Tom, as we see it, you are correct on both counts.

Tracy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,146 ·
Well, we are back, sort of; it will take me a while to figure out the basics on SmugMug. I've spent the whole day finding the best Hosting Site for us. I must agree with Terry C.; it has the best combination of security, features, and Price, $85/Year, not enough to break the Bank. A huge majority of what they offer is for those of us who like to deal with a variety of large, high-resolution photos. That suits me fine. By the way, we WILL NEVER be able to replace all or even most of the photos we placed in all those threads which are past history. We will try to do the best we can with our current, Build the 10 In. 18 Ton Gun thread, but the others, probably not. The one exception might be our Tour Through the Southern U. S. in 2014. It was a colossal, 29-day trip and included Fort Jefferson, 73 miles off the southern tip of Florida at Key West. Lots of great pics in that one. Perhaps most can be restored, but nothing is guaranteed.

Give us a few days.

Tracy & Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,147 · (Edited)
This is my Picture No. 1., a posting test image. It is also what my son and I are working on next week while Mike is visiting RocklockII, Gary in Arizona, a visit delayed one year by this Covid crap. The image was provided by Spuddy and is of a carriage ring on the No. 2. 10 In. 18 Ton Woolwich Gun at York Redoubt in Nova Scotia, Canada. Thank you Spuddy and Mrs. Hobbs! We used this image to finally find some rings that we could buy which were the correct size for our 1/8 scale gun. Mike made a fixture for the Bandsaw from my engineering drawing which holds one of these rings in exactly the right position for cutting a section out which turns the ring into a hook, like the one in picture No. 2.


251622




Picture No. 2. From another Spuddy photo, this one shows the shape of the hook that our Bandsaw fixture will help us create.

251623



That's it for now.

Tracy and Mike Nice talking with you, Douglas and THANK YOU! for posting those instructions!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,148 ·
Finally Seacoast Artillery is building a projectile shooting cannon that you can have a lot of fun with target shooting and turn a few heads at the range with as well. We are very sure that this Victorian Era British Seacoast Gun will be a lot of fun to build and will be designed to be a good shooter too with a Gun Drilled Bore. It will be precisely machined from a 100 pound round of 1018 steel with a DOM Reinforce 5.50" outside diameter over the chamber and 8.5" long. The Total length will be 22.5", the 1.000" bore about 18" long. The Tube will weigh a little over 70 pounds and the carriage and mount about 20 more. We are building only 3 of these at first to find out exactly what it costs us to do so. These will be loaners for our shooting friends who live nearby. I am teaching my son to run the lathe so he can stand there for the hours necessary to turn these large steel rounds into cannon shapes. See some added info with the following pics.

Tracy&Mike


This is the photo we are modeling our efforts on. Courtesy of Wiki, it is the No.2. Gun in York Redoubt near Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. It is a 10 Inch 18 Ton RML (Rifled Muzzle Loader) Seacoast Gun, Serial No. 75, cast in 1870 at Woolwich, England. The weight of this large gun was 17-17-0-0. The first 17 represents Tons, the second 17, Hundred Weight, the first 0 is for quarters(25 pounds), the second 0, individual pounds. It has a Queen Victoria Cypher and is mounted on an Iron Traversing Carriage Mount. The English Ton is 2,240 U.S. and Canadian pounds, therefore the weight of this gun is computed thusly: (17 x 2,240 Lbs.) = 38,080 Lbs. + (17 x 112Lbs. = 1,904 Lbs.) = 39,984 Lbs. or close to 20 Tons, U.S./Canadian.







In Fort Jackson, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia 1887, members of the Long Course of Gunnery, Middle Head, moving a 10 Inch 18 Ton RML Gun Tube. Note the sights which are in view at the highest magnification. I searched for 3 weeks before I found this photo. From Wiki.




I found this drawing of the gun's mount and carriage in the Victorian Forts and Artillery website which was very helpful. Although it is only a two dimensional drawing, the details of the front and back can be gleaned from other photos of this cannon.




This dimensioned sketch was drawn by me, because I could not lift the original copy of the drawing from the site which displayed it; if I remember what the name was I will add that later. Whoa, silly me; it is written on my sketch/drawing.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,794 Posts
Does anybody here believe in Karma?

Could something like the following have happened? An unnamed Don's daughter was recently married. At his suggestion she lodged all of her wedding photos with the BEST, he thought, Fototime. Now he's sleeping in the garage. Tired of this, he is presently instructing some of his "broken nose guys" what to do with the "Take the Money and Run Guys". Gee, can you guess? If you believe in Karma, you can probably guess correctly!!

T&M
M&T

i saved every picture of the 100 ton gun build to a word document. It is too big a file to email, but I can copy to a thumb drive and send your way if you need them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,150 ·
Hi Tom,

That would be great; I sure could use them, if I am ever to bring the great threads back again. Thank you so much! I will even let you prod me occasionally to get going on that task. HA!!

Tracy

Would any of you guys believe it if I told you that almost all of these details will be on the 10 In. 18 Ton Gun we are currently working on? No gears, of course, but 90% of the other details will be there!

251664
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,794 Posts
Hi Tom,

That would be great; I sure could use them, if I am ever to bring the great threads back again. Thank you so much! I will even let you prod me occasionally to get going on that task. HA!!

Tracy
.
I did a multi page word document (78 pages) detailing the construction of Rockbuster. I edited out all the unrelated comments and stuck to mostly you guys explanations of the build and attached all the pictures. I'll try to remember to send Greg a copy of the document too as it is a nice way to record for future generations just how much work went into these guns and just how special they are.

The Malta Heritage Trust who maintains one of the two 100 ton guns remaining in the world is interested in owning one of your firing models. I am temped to leave them it in my will as it would go on permanent display for all to see who visit the museum in Malta. Not sure my sons would be happy with that decision, but I consider it a better option than it being sold one day on eBay.

I was hoping to document the 18 ton gun build in the same fashion, so I hope the photos are recoverable
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,153 · (Edited)
Finally Seacoast Artillery is building a projectile shooting cannon that you can have a lot of fun with target shooting and turn a few heads at the range with as well. We are very sure that this Victorian Era British Seacoast Gun will be a lot of fun to build and will be designed to be a good shooter too with a Gun Drilled Bore. It will be precisely machined from a 100 pound round of 1018 steel with a DOM Reinforce 5.50" outside diameter over the chamber and 8.5" long. The Total length will be 22.5", the 1.000" bore about 18" long. The Tube will weigh a little over 70 pounds and the carriage and mount about 20 more. We are building only 3 of these at first to find out exactly what it costs us to do so. These will be loaners for our shooting friends who live nearby. I am teaching my son to run the lathe so he can stand there for the hours necessary to turn these large steel rounds into cannon shapes. See some added info with the following pics.

Tracy&Mike


This is the photo we are modeling our efforts on. Courtesy of Wiki, it is the No.2. Gun in York Redoubt near Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. It is a 10 Inch 18 Ton RML (Rifled Muzzle Loader) Seacoast Gun, Serial No. 75, cast in 1870 at Woolwich, England. The weight of this large gun was 17-17-0-0. The first 17 represents Tons, the second 17, Hundred Weight, the first 0 is for quarters(25 pounds), the second 0, individual pounds. It has a Queen Victoria Cypher and is mounted on an Iron Traversing Carriage Mount. The English Ton is 2,240 U.S. and Canadian pounds, therefore the weight of this gun is computed thusly: (17 x 2,240 Lbs.) = 38,080 Lbs. + (17 x 112Lbs. = 1,904 Lbs.) = 39,984 Lbs. or close to 20 Tons, U.S./Canadian.

The new pic.

251665










In Fort Jackson, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia 1887, members of the Long Course of Gunnery, Middle Head, moving a 10 Inch 18 Ton RML Gun Tube. Note the sights which are in view at the highest magnification. I searched for 3 weeks before I found this photo. From Wiki.




I found this drawing of the gun's mount and carriage in the Victorian Forts and Artillery website which was very helpful. Although it is only a two-dimensional drawing, the details of the front and back can be gleaned from other photos of this cannon.




This dimensioned sketch was drawn by me, because I could not lift the original copy of the drawing from the site which displayed it; if I remember what the name was I will add that later. Whoa, silly me; it is written on my sketch/drawing.

Thanks Tom, I would certainly appreciate the compilation of the Armstrong build material, you have my address. - G


This is what we worked on for about 3 weeks. the drilling and boring of the Trunnion holes.

251673




The muzzle is supported by this 1.500" dia. precision steel ball and a right angle plate.

251674




Mike cleaned up all the operating surfaces on the 15" lathe; it's not greasy and grimey anymore!

251675




The reinforced breech section is kept level by the thin adjustable parallel seen here. The one-two-three blocks and an angle plate on the other side center the reinforced breech and they stick up a bit over it so a test indicator can sweep the top edges so the center can be found for marking the vent hole location.

251676




Here you can see a test indicator being used to get the rimbase surface level before the Trunnion hole is drilled.

251677




The Trunnion hole has been drilled and bored with the Centurion Boring Head shown to a little over 1.500" dia.

251678




These Trunnion holes are bored with a double dia. From the outside, the first .400" to.500" is bored from .003" to .006" larger than the bottom, inch-long hole. The Trunnion bottom is from .0015" to .0020" larger than this bottom hole for an interference fit.

251680
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,102 Posts
T&M. Thanks for the update. Always interesting and appreciated. The setup for boring trunnions looks complicated to get right.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,794 Posts
M&T,

when you flip or spin the tube to bore on the opposite side, how will you ensure that the hole is directly opposite the first hole?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,156 ·
VA Rifleman, Thank you; it's a little complicated, but not bad compared to some things we have to do like drilling an angular vent to come out exactly 1/2" from the bore's bottom.

Fredstaple, Tom, it's not that hard if you have the initial holes drilled accurately. These are drilled when the rimbases are machined by setting the -X- axis dimension precisely the same for both by stopping the linear axis from moving with a precision steel sphere against the muzzle with a clamped down angle plate. Next, the trunnion ring and the reinforce are leveled by adjusting an adjustable parallel precisely to get the machined surface of the reinforce parallel with the milling machine table. Second, to last, the upper rimbase surface is leveled out to .0002" while rotating the tube very slightly while indicating that surface with a 50 millionths test indicator. And lastly the center along the -Y- axis is zeroed by indicating the center between the angle plate surface contacting the backside of the reinforce surface and the one-two-three blocks contacting the close, reinforce side surface. Both of the rimbase holes are located the exact same way so that they are exactly opposite.

When it's time to drill and bore the rimbase hole for the 1.5000" dia. Trunnions, a solid tapered probe held in the drill chuck is lowered gently into the original rimbase holes, centering the drill for the drilling and boring operation within .001".

Tracy & Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,563 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1,157 · (Edited)
For the past week and a few days, Mike has been shaping the Tube's Chase on the 15" Lathe. There were two tapered sections, a large radius joining them, a small muzzle radius, a muzzle face, and a 60 degree crown to machine. Here are a few photos to illustrate those features.

Mike and Tracy

This is the block-shaped Chase to reduce handling weight while keeping enough steel to allow final finish shaping to be done. The Chase is defined as the portion of the Tube between the Trunnions and the Muzzle.

251686



This photo shows that the muzzle face and the crown have already been turned and three cylindrical surfaces that become two tapered sections and a large sharp edge that becomes the large radius.

251687




This view shows the last of the small-diameter taper turning.

251688



This photo shows the turning of the large taper adjacent to the Trunnion Ring.

251689



This view shows the large-diameter taper completed and the large 1/2" Radius which joins the two tapered sections completed as well. You can see what a two-degree radius looks like here and why it takes longer to polish it to 320 grit for painting. For bluing we always polished to 400 grit.

251690



A quartering view or more artistic view which is the way most people see these Tubes.

251691




The last turning operation forms a small radius on the muzzle edge shown sharp here. Mike uses a file free-hand to accomplish this.

251693



The Chase is shown here complete except for final polishing and painting.

251694




Tomorrow Mike will polish this last Tube and disassemble our 20 Ton Hydraulic Press and frame in the basement and haul it up to the shop for re-assembly and use in driving Trunnions home. MY son will take some time off cutting machining blanks on the bandsaw to help Mike with this task. This will be one heck of a lot easier than hauling all those 100-pound Tubes up and down those basement stairs!

Chase7.JPG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,794 Posts
Really shaping up nicely! Thank you for the detailed alignment explanation.

PS. thumb drive with the Rockbuster build document is on the way. Greg, headed your way too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,794 Posts
This is the last of four 10 inch guns left in NSW Australia. It was dismounted and buried under a temporary floor in this gun casement. The casement was used as a billiards room and the gun later discovered when the floor was removed in the 70s. It is on display on a rather disappointing “carriage”. Guess the original has long since been scrapped. None the less another survivor.
251735
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
200 Posts
Really shaping up nicely! Thank you for the detailed alignment explanation.

PS. thumb drive with the Rockbuster build document is on the way. Greg, headed your way too.
Thanks so much FS, I did not realize that it involved a flash drive, very kind of you! - Best - G
 
1141 - 1160 of 1173 Posts
Top