[williamlayton]

What do the works do--in direct refrence to faith?
Blessings

 

[Bob Riebe]

[You contradict yourself here: an act is a work. The words 'work' and 'act' are interchangable.
----------------------------

No I said "not entirely" work based. That work and acts are the same is a given, but work generally is physical based, doing a sacrifice, and act is mind based, why did he do the sacridfice. Two points on a common plane.

Enoch was a man of Faith, he did not buy his way to heaven by his deeds.
Were it his deeds that made him special, they would be listed to copy, it merely says he walked with God.
The ONE deed that stood out, was he believed in God, and yes, that is an act.
, and as I said many times, that is the only act man can do that will save him, EVERYTHING else is just a natural progression as one's FAITH grows.

Bob
PS--I will not let this turn this thread, but I do believe in levels of heaven and damnation, and the WORKS one does on earth, from he heart, probably raises one's level in heaven.

 

[Dee]

Works is an outward sign of salvation but, is not necessary to receive salvation. When we stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ we will not be judged for our sin, but for our Good Works. Some will have more than others, and some maybe none at all. You will receive your crown according to your works, some a better one than others, but in the end you will place that crown at the feet of Christ.
No were does it say works are NECESSARY for salvation.

Ephesians Chatpter 2 verses 8 & 9. 8. For by grace are ye saved thruough faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. NOT OF WORKS[/color], Lest any man should boast.

Romans Chapter 3 verse 20. Therefore by the deeds of the law THERE SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED IN HIS SIGHT: [/color] for by the law IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.
Chapter 3 verses 26, 27 & 28 To declare I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what LAW? OF WORKS? NAY: BUT BY THE LAW OF "FAITH".

VERSE 28. THEREFORE WE CONCLUDE THAT[/color] A MAN IS "JUSTIFIED BY FAITH" WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.[/color]

Acts Chpater 13 verse 39. And by him all that believe are JUSTIFIED FROM ALL THINGS, from which YE COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW OF MOSES[/color].

We are JUSTIFIED i.e. SAVED by Grace thru Faith in Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice on the Cross.[/color]

 

[Pascal Baylon]

What do the works do--in direct refrence to faith?

They're our response to faith. They're evidence of our true love for Our Lord, in that we obey what he asked us to do, simply because we love him. On a physical level they can humble us and help us to see Christ in others, thereby having a kinder and Christ-like attitude.

No I said "not entirely" work based. That work and acts are the same is a given, but work generally is physical based, doing a sacrifice, and act is mind based, why did he do the sacridfice. Two points on a common plane.

Ok, I can see your point here. I still say though, that I think the work is necessary here. One could not benefit from the act (intention, belief in, desire to) to do the sacrifice without the work of actually bringing one of the holy animals to the temple. Why he did the sacrifice is his faith that God will follow through on his promise to remove his sins based on this work of presenting his sacrifice. They are two points on a common plane, but both are necessary IMHO.

I will not let this turn this thread, but I do believe in levels of heaven and damnation, and the WORKS one does on earth, from he heart, probably raises one's level in heaven

I agree with this too. I've heard it said that in heaven, everyone's cup will be full, but some will have a larger cup. Same thing.

No were does it say works are NECESSARY for salvation

"Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me. Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you? And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for these, the least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food. I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Mathew 25:31-46

In the above scripture God seperates the sheep and the goats. It's well known. He then judges them based entirely off of their works. Those who have done good works for/to/with Him, he gives eternal life. Those who have not are sent into the eternal fire reserved for the devil and his angles. ****. Those who've done good works get Heaven, those who've done bad works get ****. Those who do good works are saved. Salvation is connected to good works very closely, and obviously they're necessary for salvation based off this passage.

I am NOT saying that faith does not play a part in salvation. Dee provided us with many verses defending faith being necessary to salvation. We have to look at those verses in accord with this one to get the truth of the gospel. None of the verses Dee points out are any more inspired then Mathew 25. They must meet and compliment one another, so obviously our good works are necessary, in part, for our salvation.

 

[williamlayton]

Paschal
If it is our response where is the attonement--or--what is the purpose?
Is it in order that the LORD will know?
Blessings

 

[Dee]

Paschal, there are two judgement seats. The Judgement Seat of Christ for the saved (Christians) and the White Throne of Judgement for the lost.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Pascal,

Try to focus on those parts of this debate that Catholics and non-Catholics agree on. For example, if there is true Faith, then works will follow.

Sometimes I suspect the debate is really over semantics and not over the belief itself.

That's how Bill and I reached a manner of speaking by stating that Faith must be professed and practiced. Because if a person doesn't not put their Faith into practice this raises the suspicions that they don't really believe. They SAY they believe so long as it gets them some kind of earthly reward, like a politician perhaps poses as a believer to garner votes. It's also possible that they are just extremely weak - such as an alcoholic who perhaps does truly believe but has been in and out of sobriety for years.

Pactice and profess your Faith - because Faith is what saves us. Works w/o faith will never merit salvation. And a Faith that is not practiced is dead - in other words it's a false faith not capable of saving a soul.

I'm still waiting of Rob to respond to my questions.

PS
If the Orthodox, Romans, and Coptics, and Anglican can tie there roots directly, well Luther was a Roman Catholic, so the Lutherans can use this connection also.
Other denminations history I am not fully aware of but some may also tie back due to founders being connected to an older denomination before finding fault with that dogma and creating their dogma.

But there is a clear break with the Lutherans because there is a market change in the belief in the Eucharist. Lutherans do not share the same belief in the Eucharist as the RC and Orthodox do. Therefore the Lutheran interpretation of "This is my body" cannot be the same interpretation that the 12 Apostles made of Jesus' words.

Is is possible that the Anglicans, Orthodox, and RC are sticking to what Jesus meant when he said, "this is my body"? Is it possible that if you re-interpret those same words 1500 years later you might get it wrong?

 

[Pascal Baylon]

If it is our response where is the attonement--or--what is the purpose?
Is it in order that the LORD will know?

Attonement? Do you mean for sin? That would be a different subject I would think. Jesus accomplished the sacrifice that forgives our sin, but he also asks us to do things for him. We obey. No, it's not necessary to do good works so that 'the Lord will know'. He knows what's in our hearts.

Paschal, there are two judgement seats. The Judgement Seat of Christ for the saved (Christians) and the White Throne of Judgement for the lost.

Where is this from? I've never heard of there being two thrones. In that verse I quoted (Mathew) they were all before the one throne, unless you think that the people who were all being judged here were one or the other. I don't think you could though because if they were all Christians they would all be being judged by their works and some would be found wanting. If they were all non-Christians that would mean some of them got to Heaven on their works alone, which, based off of your previous posts, I'm sure you don't believe could happen. I'm not understanding what you're saying here I think, and I've never heard of two thrones. Could you explain a little more?

Pascal,

Try to focus on those parts of this debate that Catholics and non-Catholics agree on. For example, if there is true Faith, then works will follow.

Yes, I think we're actually in a large part in agreement here. The only real difference (I think) is whether or not we're judged based on our faith and works, or if works are unnecessary in judgement except in regards to 'rank' in Heaven.

 

[Dee]

THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST

2nd Corinthians Chapter 5 verse 10. For we must all appear before THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Also Romans Chapter 14 verse 10, Galatians Chapter 6 verse 7, & Ephesians Chapter 6 verse 8.[/color]

The believer's works will be judged at the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST[/color]. This term Judgement seat of Christ is found only twice in the entire Bible, but is referred to many times. A careful reading of the above and Romans 14 verse 10 [/color] reveals that only BELIEVERS will appear at the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST[/color], and it will be for their works, NOT THEIR SINS.[/color]

There will be 1000 years between the resurrection of the SAVED [/color] and the UNSAVED[/color], which also means there will be a thousand years between the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (which is for the SAVED) [/color] and the GREAT WHITE THRONE OF JUDGEMENT[/color], talked about in Revelation Chapter 20 verse 11. which is for the unsaved.[/[/color]color].

This Judgement Seat of Christ[/color] is further substanciated by Revelation Chapter 20 verses 4 & 5. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon on them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS, AND THEY LIVED AND "REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS."[/[/color]color]

Verse 5. BUT THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE "FINISHED". [/color] This is the first RESURRECTION.[/color]

THE GREAT WHITE THRONE[/color]

lor=brown]Revelation Chapter 20 verses 11, 12, 13, & 14. Verse 11. AND I SAW A GREAT WHITE THRONE, and Him that sat on it, from whose face THE EARTH AND THE HEAVEN "FLED AWAY"; AND THERE WAS FOUND "NO PLACE FOR THEM".[/color] Meaning the lost were trying to hide from judgement. [/color] Verse 12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is THe Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Verse 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and **** delievered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to ther works. Verse 14. And death and **** were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. [/color] Verse 15. And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.[/color]

This is the[/color] FINAL JUDGEMENT[/color] of those whom had rejected God and Christ from the beginning of man to the end of the Great Tribulation. They did not go before the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST the SAVED did, but were held until the FINAL JUDGEMENT, and the GREAT WHITE THRONE of judgement.[/color]

 

[Pascal Baylon]

Romans 14:10 - 11 says "Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of God. For it is written: 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.' "

I added on verse 11. Are you saying that because it is St. Paul who is saying "we shall all stand before the judgement seat of God" that the 'we' is only referring to believers? I've always believed this verse referred to every human, especially in connection with verse 11 "every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."

I'm sorry, I don't have time right now to look at the other verses you've said. I have to finish dinner and go to the grocery store. If you'd like to wait to type a response I'll look at those other verses this evening and post a response.

 

[Pascal Baylon]

Ok, back. Galations 6:7 "Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows."

Ephesians 6:8 "...knowing that each will be requited from the Lord for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free."

Each of these verses seem to say we'll be judged on our works (not only on our works, but on our works nonetheless). I don't see anything in them that makes any division between the saved on unsaved.

Revelation 20:11-12 "Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it, The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. I saw the dead, the great and the lowl, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls." Revelation 20:15 "Anyone who's name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire."

I don't see this verse saying that all everyone standing before this throne is unsaved. Actually, in accord with verse 15 I see there are both saved and unsaved present, and they were seperated as they were judged.

 

[williamlayton]

Paschal-
Oh my lord, I find myownself on the same side of the fence with Dee again. ??? :
Christ Jesus said He did not come to judge the world. Christ does judge the believer but it is not a judgement of damnation or salvation. All that come to Christ are given too Him.
I will NOT enter into any dialogue about the Trinity on this thread.
God judges the lost, the unbeliever, unsaved and that judgement is based on belief in Christ.
Christ does judge the believers works only and only for rewards/crowns and then we will throw them back at his feet---not because of lack of appreciation but because OF appreciation.
This issue of scripture defining scripture is all that is discussed and the differences that divide the church. I would say that you are taking this scripture out of context with all that is written concerning judgements and judgement of the lost and judgement of the saved.
Blessings

 

[Dee]

Paschal, context is very important, and equally important is TIME LINE. I have outlined the time line for you pertaining to the CATCHING UP of the Church (ALL CHRISTIANS) at the time of Christ returning to get them. But understand that when the Church is RAPTURED, that They (the Church) meet Christ IN THE AIR. He is not returning to earth just yet. When he does the The Church will come with Him as His Mighty Army.

1st Thessalonians Chapter 4 verse 16. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST[/color]: Verse 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM "IN THE CLOUDS" TO MEET THE "LORD IN THE AIR:[/color] and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/color]

Note where this meeting takes place. Not on earth, but IN THE AIR. No mention of thel lost, being resurrected, they will be the last.

Once again here in Thessalonians we see THE CHURCH i.e. the Christians being RESURRECTED AND caught up BEFORE THE LOST are resurrected and judged. The Church is ALREADY saved, and will not be JUDGED FOR SIN, as Christ has ALREADY paid their sin debt. They will be judged for their GOOD WORKS. The saved are unless RAPTURED BEFORE DEATH are destined to die only once.
The lost are destined to DIE TWICE. Once on earth, and the FINAL JUDGEMENT when the lost are sentenced to ****, which is the SECOND DEATH. Thus verse 14, in Revelation Chapter 20; And death and **** were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH.[/color]

 

[Black Knight]

I would agree Bob. The catholic church until the split from it was more into coveting the word from the commoner than sharing it. Their practice was and is to give THEIR version of it. Control of the people has always, and still is the goal of the catholic church.[/color]

Hey Dee,
Can you prove any of this? Where did you get this, because I'd really like to see a source for all this.

Opinions are easy to offer...but if they prove to be without a basis in fact, then that's worth discovering.

Truth is important, is it not?
Blackie

 

[Black Knight]

Paschal, context is very important, and equally important is TIME LINE. I have outlined the time line for you pertaining to the CATCHING UP of the Church (ALL CHRISTIANS) at the time of Christ returning to get them. But understand that when the Church is RAPTURED, that They (the Church) meet Christ IN THE AIR. He is not returning to earth just yet. When he does the The Church will come with Him as His Mighty Army.

Y'know, I did some research and study on the "Rapture" and I noticed a couple of things.

1. Not all Christians believe in this, Catholic or non-Catholic regardless.
2. I cannot find any reputable Christian teachers who taught this prior to about 1825 when Church of Ireland pastor John Nelson Darby began to teach it.
3. It was unknown here in the U.S. until C.I. Scofield included it in the notes of his well known reference Bible in about 1901.

Needless to say, I don't believe it and in spite of all the teaching I have read and heard over the years, it really doesn't add up to me.
There is a good MP3 Bible study that can be downloaded for free on this at http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/rapture_and_the_bible.mp3 that might be of interest to some folks.
Blackie

 

[williamlayton]

The rapture has always been a doctrine---perhaps you are talking about the pre-trib rapture.
If this is so, I would agree with the convictions of the Apostles and say the the Church will go thru at least part of the tribulation---saying that--I also say i pray that I am wrong.
Blessings

 

[Bob Riebe]

I would agree Bob. The catholic church until the split from it was more into coveting the word from the commoner than sharing it. Their practice was and is to give THEIR version of it. Control of the people has always, and still is the goal of the catholic church.[/color]

Hey Dee,
Can you prove any of this? Where did you get this, because I'd really like to see a source for all this.

Opinions are easy to offer...but if they prove to be without a basis in fact, then that's worth discovering.

Truth is important, is it not?
Blackie

If you are going to address a quote, address it within the context of the conversation it was delivered; otherwise go troll somewhere else.

We know Dee's opinions, and I admire Peccis's ability to repond without siimilar language. You are a Johnny come lately, trying emulating Pecci, any damned fool can emulate a grade school child.

 

[Black Knight]

Look fella, I have been respectful and honest in my every post so far and I don't appreciate your ad hominem "troll". If you can't respond with Christian charity and facts, then perhaps you have the issue and not me.

There is nothing whatever in my post that is not meant in all seriousness. I don't care if Dee is the pastor of his church or head of some denomination. In any civil discussion or debate, when someone makes a statement or allegation, then it is considered appropriate to ask for verifiable sources, and that is all I have done.

If someone makes an allegation or statement and then refuses to or cannot provide verifiable sources, then there is justification to question the accuracy of their remarks on that topic.

If you can't add anything more than name calling, let me use your own turn of phrase, "any damned fool can emulate a grade school child."[/color]
Blackie

 

[Black Knight]

The rapture has always been a doctrine---perhaps you are talking about the pre-trib rapture.[/color]
If this is so, I would agree with the convictions of the Apostles and say the the Church will go thru at least part of the tribulation---saying that--I also say i pray that I am wrong.
Blessings

You're quite right, and I agree with you in all respects.
Thank you for you kindness and clarification.
Blackie

 

[Bob Riebe]

Look fella, I have been respectful and honest in my every post so far and I don't appreciate your ad hominem "troll". If you can't respond with Christian charity and facts, then perhaps you have the issue and not me.

There is nothing whatever in my post that is not meant in all seriousness. I don't care if Dee is the pastor of his church or head of some denomination. In any civil discussion or debate, when someone makes a statement or allegation, then it is considered appropriate to ask for verifiable sources, and that is all I have done.

If someone makes an allegation or statement and then refuses to or cannot provide verifiable sources, then there is justification to question the accuracy of their remarks on that topic.

If you can't add anything more than name calling, let me use your own turn of phrase, "any damned fool can emulate a grade school child."[/color]
Blackie

Your comments are snide, narcissistic and vacuous. Fine for sixth grade but adults post here.
Oh yes you have my permission to mimic this response if you cannot thing for yourself, such would be expected.
Bob
Now go look up the word context.