On the 2nd day of the Ala. hunting season I shot a buck(not a large one) at less than 10 yds. with a 44mag. using a Rem. 240 gr. hp @ about 1,275 fps. Bullet entered low, hitting the heart, hemoraging(?) a lung and shattering the opposite leg, with slug under the skin. Odd that it didn't go on through, but the really odd thing is that it blew a 2-1/2" enterance hole. How can this be? I've never had that happen before on close shots, though most are lung shots. Pat :shock:
enterance hole
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Entrance holes
Hay HHI: are you certain the bullet did not strike something before it hit the buck? Possibly it began to keyhole upon impact - a sideways bullet would have made a much larger entry hole with much greater tissue damage upon entry. What did the bullet look like upon recovery? Mikey
Hay HHI: are you certain the bullet did not strike something before it hit the buck? Possibly it began to keyhole upon impact - a sideways bullet would have made a much larger entry hole with much greater tissue damage upon entry. What did the bullet look like upon recovery? Mikey
444
Hay Woodswalker: You said your brother used your 444 with 360 grain bullets. Was that a misprint? If not, what bullet was it, was it gaschecked, what was the powder/charge. I love my 444 and am constantly trying to find accurate heavy cast bullet loads for it.
Strange description of the entry wound. Sometimes you just have to wonder how that happens. Buncha years ago I took a large Tom Turkey with a 444 - it was the only thing I had at the time. I was using a factory 240 grain load - the darn thing cleaned right through a 4" pine I hadn't noticed and then right through the bird. I was awed but grateful for a Thanksgiving Turkey. My bullet had deformed going through the pine tree but the bird was right behind it and the bullet hadn't had the chance to delfect much. Mikey.
Hay Woodswalker: You said your brother used your 444 with 360 grain bullets. Was that a misprint? If not, what bullet was it, was it gaschecked, what was the powder/charge. I love my 444 and am constantly trying to find accurate heavy cast bullet loads for it.
Strange description of the entry wound. Sometimes you just have to wonder how that happens. Buncha years ago I took a large Tom Turkey with a 444 - it was the only thing I had at the time. I was using a factory 240 grain load - the darn thing cleaned right through a 4" pine I hadn't noticed and then right through the bird. I was awed but grateful for a Thanksgiving Turkey. My bullet had deformed going through the pine tree but the bird was right behind it and the bullet hadn't had the chance to delfect much. Mikey.
sorry guys, the deer was maybe 7yds. and in wide open fiew. Maybe it's like Jimmy Cirello(?) told me once. He was on robbery stakeout one night and ended up putting a 12 ga. slug in a guys ear at point blank range( a few inches, he said). Told me that the mans brains blew back out and all over him(Cirello) :shock: . He said that the hydroylic action within the mans skull before an exit hole could be made, caused this to happen. NASTY! My slug looked like any would after breaking leg bone. Pat :roll:
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1,341 Posts
I've noticed the same thing when I've shot deer with my 45 Colt carbine. Big entrance holes with a lot a bone/lungs and tissue blown out. My buddy had the same thing happen to him this year with his 44. I have a theory that those big, relatively slow bullets don't ventilate the far side fast enough to relieve the pressure wave created by the bullet displacing muscle tissue and visera. Something has to give and it goes out the front side.
though i have often read posts on this forum and the old version of the site, i decided to finally add a thought to this.
now realize this is nothing more than a thought: Imagine if you have a pool of water and you drop one drop into it, does not the water splash back up a little. now imagine that the drop is a .429cal bullet at 1275fps. though this theory says nothing about why it doesnt happen more often. beats me, just a thought
now realize this is nothing more than a thought: Imagine if you have a pool of water and you drop one drop into it, does not the water splash back up a little. now imagine that the drop is a .429cal bullet at 1275fps. though this theory says nothing about why it doesnt happen more often. beats me, just a thought
444s
Woods Walker: thank you for getting back to me. RL-7 is one of the preferred powders on the Beartooth Bullets forum where they have developed heavy loads for the 444. Beartooth makes their 444 bullets in 300, 325, 335, 350 and 405 grains. All are gaschecked and all are sized large, at 431-432. They found as you did that if the heavier bullet isn't going fast enough it will yaw on ya. Bump up the velocity a bit and she straightens out. I haven't yet had the chance to load any of their 405 grainers - got em sitting on my bench. Haven't even had the time to go shoot the last batch of 300 grain gaschecks I loaded up. And I also find the RL-7 powder to be accurate and consistent. I should have started using that long ago. Dang.
I haven't been to the Beartooth forum in a while but need to get back there for more loading data. In addition, they were going to try and find a low velocity heavy bullet plinking load for the 444 and I wonder how they have managed with that project. If you haven't visited their site it is worthwhile if you like the 444. Lots of great information.
Thanks again. Mikey.
Woods Walker: thank you for getting back to me. RL-7 is one of the preferred powders on the Beartooth Bullets forum where they have developed heavy loads for the 444. Beartooth makes their 444 bullets in 300, 325, 335, 350 and 405 grains. All are gaschecked and all are sized large, at 431-432. They found as you did that if the heavier bullet isn't going fast enough it will yaw on ya. Bump up the velocity a bit and she straightens out. I haven't yet had the chance to load any of their 405 grainers - got em sitting on my bench. Haven't even had the time to go shoot the last batch of 300 grain gaschecks I loaded up. And I also find the RL-7 powder to be accurate and consistent. I should have started using that long ago. Dang.
I haven't been to the Beartooth forum in a while but need to get back there for more loading data. In addition, they were going to try and find a low velocity heavy bullet plinking load for the 444 and I wonder how they have managed with that project. If you haven't visited their site it is worthwhile if you like the 444. Lots of great information.
Thanks again. Mikey.
Another View
I was antelope hunting in Wyoming and had a good shot @ 250 yds. The goat was going up hill and the bullet entered next to the spine, under the 2nd rib. "Fragmants" exited through the front of the chest directly in front of the heart. I could put my fist into the entrance hole without touching the sides, lost a hunk of backstrap. The fragments where bone secondary projectiles. The bullet was recovered in a perfect mushroom.
All this from an '03 Springfield shooting reduced loads and 165gr Hornady boattail. The entrance wound was a soft tissue injury from hitting the edge of the spine and the shock just blew the meat away.
Hope this helps!
I was antelope hunting in Wyoming and had a good shot @ 250 yds. The goat was going up hill and the bullet entered next to the spine, under the 2nd rib. "Fragmants" exited through the front of the chest directly in front of the heart. I could put my fist into the entrance hole without touching the sides, lost a hunk of backstrap. The fragments where bone secondary projectiles. The bullet was recovered in a perfect mushroom.
All this from an '03 Springfield shooting reduced loads and 165gr Hornady boattail. The entrance wound was a soft tissue injury from hitting the edge of the spine and the shock just blew the meat away.
Hope this helps!
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33 Posts
large entrance holes
Maybe its the sound barrier or something (sonic boom)????
I like the puddle/water drop idea
I do know that if you shoot glass (window) at close range with a handgun you will be showered with glass....don't know why
Maybe its the sound barrier or something (sonic boom)????
I like the puddle/water drop idea
I do know that if you shoot glass (window) at close range with a handgun you will be showered with glass....don't know why
Entrance holes
Fellas: something that might help demonstrate this to you rather than trying to explain it in technical detail is through some wintertime fun.
If you shoot or practice shooting out of doors during the winter and can find an icefall or frozen section of vertical ice that is safe to shoot at, see how different bullets react to impact on ice.
Safe means no ricochets or through and through penetration that would injure anyone. Best places are frozen waterfalls or frozen drainage on the steep sides of hills where you can shoot safely.
Use pistol bullets as they are easiest to track. See what happens to the ice when different style bullets impact, and then see if you can find the bullet. Often the bullet may simply back out of the hole or drop out - whether from hydraulic pressure or hot lead melting a hole in the ice and allowing the spent bullet to fall (or drain) out.
But take a look at the strange entrance holes they make and at what the hydraulic or pressure forces do to create the hole. It's fairly easy to see in the ice, especially in ice blocks. That may give you some idea as to why things 'blow back at you' and may provide some insights as to why some entrance holes appear strangely large in relation to the size of the bullet.
If you don't have natural phenomena like this around, a large cardboard box with a trash bag filled with water and frozen should give you the same effect. It's very interesting. I witnessed this once after chasing a red squirrel up a frozen waterfall with a 22 and then continued to witness the same effect later with different bullets and calibers. It was very interesting. Hope this helps. Mikey.
Fellas: something that might help demonstrate this to you rather than trying to explain it in technical detail is through some wintertime fun.
If you shoot or practice shooting out of doors during the winter and can find an icefall or frozen section of vertical ice that is safe to shoot at, see how different bullets react to impact on ice.
Safe means no ricochets or through and through penetration that would injure anyone. Best places are frozen waterfalls or frozen drainage on the steep sides of hills where you can shoot safely.
Use pistol bullets as they are easiest to track. See what happens to the ice when different style bullets impact, and then see if you can find the bullet. Often the bullet may simply back out of the hole or drop out - whether from hydraulic pressure or hot lead melting a hole in the ice and allowing the spent bullet to fall (or drain) out.
But take a look at the strange entrance holes they make and at what the hydraulic or pressure forces do to create the hole. It's fairly easy to see in the ice, especially in ice blocks. That may give you some idea as to why things 'blow back at you' and may provide some insights as to why some entrance holes appear strangely large in relation to the size of the bullet.
If you don't have natural phenomena like this around, a large cardboard box with a trash bag filled with water and frozen should give you the same effect. It's very interesting. I witnessed this once after chasing a red squirrel up a frozen waterfall with a 22 and then continued to witness the same effect later with different bullets and calibers. It was very interesting. Hope this helps. Mikey.
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315 Posts
hole size
Took a decient buck last week, but been bothered by the entry/exit hole. 125 yards, 25/06, entry hole size of a quarter. exit hole dime size. water effect theory...hhhhmmmm, interesting
Rick
Took a decient buck last week, but been bothered by the entry/exit hole. 125 yards, 25/06, entry hole size of a quarter. exit hole dime size. water effect theory...hhhhmmmm, interesting
Rick
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