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Discussion Starter #1
I reckon this is a touchy subject for many who have faith & believe in God & creation but I'm curious how others here feel on the subject.

I'v found myself comfortable with the idea of evolution & dont have much trouble fitting it into what we find in the bible.

The 7 days that God used to create the world dont have to be the same as the days as we know them. Its my opinion they cant be because the day as we know it didn't exist before creation was complete.
The days they speak of could likely have taken thousands of years as we count time to pass.
Its my opinion that he created all the animals & such that we see in the fossil record with the ability to adjust to their environment as it too was a constantly changing thing. To create any creature without the ability to change with the times would be silly since he knew that the Earth he created was constantly changing.

So after many thousands of years he liked what he saw & decided to broaden his great experiment & give some creatures the ability to reason & think, in order to see what would come of it.

I think that he surveyed his animal life looking for which evolutionary product was best suited to take advantage of this intelegence he wanted to share. In order for the inteligence to matter the animal he chose had to have certain physical traits. It needed to have hands to build & create the tools its brain concieved. It needed to walk upright so as to free its hands so it could use these tools & it needed to live long enough to learn at least the basic properties of the materials that God provided for the building of these tools. It needed to have the ability to make a very large range of sounds as well in order that it could learn to speak & eventually read & write.

Looking at the creatures we have now the only ones suited to be given a chance at this are the primates but theyre not perfect enough as they are.

So he took some primate & let it evolve in a manner different from his other creations in that its evolution wasn't just based on survival but on advancement that outpaced the environment.
Not knowing in advance exactly how this experiment would turn out he let this evolution go in several directions. Thats how we find in the fossil record multiple creatures similar to man but different as well & its why we, the theoretical final product shared the world for a bit with what we call the Neanderthals.

Once he found that the most promising of the new critters he made was what we call homosapiens he wiped the slate clean of the others & let us learn to speak & eventually read & write.

After we could speak but before writen language was concieved he took one (Adam) & put him someplace where he could personally teach him right from wrong & see if this project was going the way he wanted.
What he found made him happy to an extent but since he gave man the ability to think man alse had a free will & a desire to learn.
Eventually Adams desire to learn outweighed his desire to be obedient & he got booted from the garden. Might not seem nice but God was giving him what he wanted as he was most certainly gonna have to learn in order to survive outside the garden.

Thats why he found people all over the place when he went out & I believe that the story in the Bible was the best that Man could do at the time with the limited knowledge he had at the time.

The battle within Adam is the same one raging in us all to this day, the desire to be good & do right by our Lord but at the same time learn & make the world a more pleasant place to live. Its a tough line to walk as many times what we find we need to better our own lot comes at the cost of others.

What say you guys?
 

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Evolution exists ,has existed ,and will exist and fits right is with a Supreme being ,--why do we have appendix,Teats on males ,wisdom teeth and on and on.
 

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Yeah, I think you both have it nailed down prety well, not that I'm an expert on the subject.
You both make sense.
A lot more sense than a literal 6/24 hour day creation. :)
I wonder if literalist creationist still blame the devil for an eclipse of the sun? :twisted: :roll: :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I wonder if literalist creationist still blame the devil for an eclipse of the sun? Twisted Evil Rolling Eyes Wink
C'mon now jeager, the whole world now atributes that to the shadow of Rossie Odonnol's butt. :-D :)
 

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I dunno where you guys came from but I'm not decended from no dang monkey nor from a black woman in Africa. Don't care what any of the theories say. Didn't happen.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
GB,

With all due respect, we may not be descended from monkeys but even if you believe creation exactly as described in the Bible you cant rule out the idea that your family tree might intercept that of an African woman as she too is descended from Adam if Adam was really the first Man. Either that or Black people arent people & I cant accept that. :)

The very diversity of the human race is evidence of evolution. Adam was in the Mideast if I understand right & so we should all look like Iraqis, but we dont.
I think God left alot of mystery in His word because there are alot of things folks in Jesus's day just couldn't comprehend. Like when you oversimplify something so your child will understand. Even tho you may tell your child the sun rises in the East when he's small you expect that once adults they understand its not the sun coming up but the horizon going down.
God has to want us to see the truth or we wouldnt have the gifts we have been given to see into the past & view it with the acumulated knowledge of the ages. Or something like that. :D
 

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My DNA is posted on the Elliott forum and known mutations are back to 35000 years ago.Not only is The Iraq are the Fertial crescent area [between the Eurphrates and Tigris ] but also the beginning of a Monothistic God,and the center for the distribution of man North East and West and the DNA can be traced to Alaska[through China] and Europe -where Homo Sapiens out bred the Neanderthols as the offspring were sterile like a Mule is with horse and burro- and into Iberia[no Spain} the Normans and Saxons and the two movements at least acroos the channel land bridge just like the Bering strait Land bridge.
 

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With all due respect, we may not be descended from monkeys but even if you believe creation exactly as described in the Bible you cant rule out the idea that your family tree might intercept that of an African woman as she too is descended from Adam if Adam was really the first Man. Either that or Black people arent people & I cant accept that.
Sure I can. You don't have to believe it however. I cannot fully explain it. I have only questions, no answers. But I'm as sure as I can be that blacks and whites at some point split off from whatever that common ancestor was. What did that common ancestor look like? I've got no clue. Yes I agree they are human in all respects. I'm not in any way trying to put them down. I'm just saying that I do not believe the group or theory that Eve was a black woman. Sorry, don't buy it. Nope I canot disprove it anymore than the folks who put forth that theory can prove it.

Imma kinda thinking we all might have looked alike until the tower of babel. At that point GOD decided things had to change. How, what and such I dunno. But then the languages split and races developed. Again I have no answers only questions.



My DNA is posted on the Elliott forum and known mutations are back to 35000 years ago.Not only is The Iraq are the Fertial crescent area [between the Eurphrates and Tigris ] but also the beginning of a Monothistic God,and the center for the distribution of man North East and West and the DNA can be traced to Alaska[through China] and Europe -where Homo Sapiens out bred the Neanderthols as the offspring were sterile like a Mule is with horse and burro- and into Iberia[no Spain} the Normans and Saxons and the two movements at least acroos the channel land bridge just like the Bering strait Land bridge.
Huh? Whathesay? Can you do that again in English?
 

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:yeah: :-D :-D
I'll second "Huh? Whathesay? Can you do that again in English?
that! :eek: :shock:

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you have any belief in science or reason based on evidence then I think we have to go with evolution.
Now who's to say 'god' didn't USE evolution as the tool that brought the human race into existance?
I dunno.
I do know that the genetic difference between Graybeard and a black woman is about one tenth of one percent.
Unfortunatley the difference between Graybeard and a chimp is about one tenth of one percent. :-D
No offense Graybeard as that also includes ME.
The family of man is more closely related than we ever knew before DNA was studied.
Do we have a common ancestor? Most assuredly we do indeed.
That means that Graybeard and I are close cousins and that being the case I think he should mail me some of his best guns for tender loving care and much use.
After all we are family. :twisted: :twisted:
 

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Evolution within species seems evident and I can accept it. However I do not believe that one species can evolve into an entirely different one.

In other words I find it difficult to believe that a single celled organism evolved into a fish with bones, brains and a nervous system which in turn evolved into a cold blooded, egg laying, reptile with legs and lungs which in turn evolved into a warm blooded, live bearing chimp which finally evolved into man.

Heck, that's a whole lot more far fetched to me than God creating each individual species. :shock:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
GB,

To be honest I never really thought about Eve being black. Dont buy it either because of the geografy & all.
My thoughts were more along the line that people, at different times thru the ages since civilazation began & likely even before that moved around alot. Be it wandering tribes or Alexander & his armies people roamed far & wide, no doubt interbreeding with local women wherever they went.
I'm American but my family all comes from Italy. As far as I know anyway & I consider myself white. :) Both sets of my grandparents came here as children my fathers family from Naples & Calabria & my moms from Naples & a place called Frazzi Nona, I'm pretty sure I mispelled that. Anyway I dont know if 10 generations back one of my ancesters didn't marry some north African woman, or a woman from anywhere & bring her home & 10 generations later we're Italian looking again. Some people can trace stuff pretty far back but I never met anyone that could go back to the time of Cain & Able. I'v been able to go back to my grandfathers grandfather but thats it & my moms side back to her maternal great grandfather. They were all peasants or whatever & not much got recorded.

I never did Wiz's DNA test tho. :lol:
I think what Wiz was trying to say was that we can, thru modern science & DNA trace pretty good how & when the different races or what have you moved around the globe.

I'm glad Jeager mentioned the DNA differences between us & a chimp. Its amazing that its no greater than that between some races of people.

Theres the time span thing too that makes me wonder. Wiz mentioned some mutants from 35,000 years ago. I dont know about them but I know they found human remains & signs of occupation & things much older than when Adam was supposed to be created. When he went out he found civilizations & such. So what about the cave men, for lack of a better term?
Adam popped right out into the bronze age. Heck of a trick.

I didn't think you were prejudice & if it came across that way I sure apologize. I just wanted to be clear on MY feelings about it.
My thinking on the races is local conditions or something similar favor some trait or other in different places & thru time we got what we got. I'm sure its still acuring to some extent but the way the world is getting smaller & everyone lives now I think natural selection might not perform as well as it used to. :grin:

Anyway, I have only questions too & no answers. Ideas & thoughts about something I'll never know & faith that God expected me to try & find the answers. Might be futile but it keeps Him & Jesus in my thoughts & that cant be bad. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Brett said:
Evolution within species seems evident and I can accept it. However I do not believe that one species can evolve into an entirely different one.

In other words I find it difficult to believe that a single celled organism evolved into a fish with bones, brains and a nervous system which in turn evolved into a cold blooded, egg laying, reptile with legs and lungs which in turn evolved into a warm blooded, live bearing chimp which finally evolved into man.

Heck, that's a whole lot more far fetched to me than God creating each individual species. :shock:

I can buy that. :grin: Thats more or less how I think. I just dont think he made man way back in the begining. I think it was an ongoing thing & he tried different aproaches. I think once he got around to making mamals & such after he wiped out the dinasaurs for whatever reason, maybe so they wouldnt eat all the nice furry mamals. :shock: He wanted to make a smart one that could think & reason & that could be made aware of having a creator. Like I said in the first post he took the best suited form of life he had & switched it around a bit, gave it a soul & set it free, gave it some guidance thru the ages but more or less let it run its course.
A big concern to me is weather or not he aproves of what we've become & where we're headed. :?
 

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As humanist not to mention a liberal I have no problem with evolution,

EXCEPT!

Where did the gas / dust come from and what caused it swirl, so it could condense heat up as it collapsed and then explode in the “Big Bang”.

As for inter-species evolution, an example of a parasitic organism that has evolved from a mere blood-sucker to human form is our politicians.

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon
 

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For me personally, as a humanist, I reject super-natural explanations; I rely on observation, reasoning and the scientific method. I believe humanity is another animal species, more intelligent than the others, but still the result of an evolutionary process, which I do not understand yet, and that our values, religions, ethics, and acceptable behaviors are based upon our experiences and culture.

Bluntly, I do not believe a “who” made the universe or its’ inhabitants, nor do I yet now how it was created, but I firmly believe that our concept of “God”, is of our own design and making.

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon
 

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As opposed to believing in "magic", you bet.

may your God be with you and you with your God

jon
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Cool, I can deal with that. Least your honest.
I can almost understand not believing in God but I always did. For a long time I didn't worry much about Him but I always believed in Him.
I see Him & his work everywhere & theres just never been a question.
Now, what he wants from me is where I always had trouble.
I'm Catholic, because my folks are & so on & found it hard to get anything from my churches. So like I said I just kinda wandered around believing but not careing. I met my Wife & she's Irish Catholic & way into it & she got me going back to church again for awhile but I still found it lacking. What she did do was rekindle things for me as well as Powderman more recently.
I used to look for answers in the Bible, now I read it. I dont know much about the different ones out there but the one I'v been reading says "Confraternity Version" on the front. I'm at Paul at Thessalonica right now. & theres one I just found called the "New international Version" published by Zondervan if that means anything. I intend to just start reading that one when this ones done. I cant begin to call myself an expert but I'm trying to learn, from the most unbiased source I know of, how best to please God & Jesus myself & part of that requires I understand what is in the Bible. Its turned out easier than I thought.
I believe in it, but I want to know it. Like I said I'm not trying to find individual answers anymore but trying to come to terms with the whole thing. If that bothers some people I cant help that.
Anybody out there want to suggest another Bible than the Zondervan one feel free. Theres lots of folks here I respect your opinions whether you think so or not or value mine or not, so if you'v a suggestion caugh it up. :grin:
 

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The comment on a black Eve was based on the History Channel (I think) special where they made that assertion and put it forth as if in their mind it was proven fact. Not proven to me.

The how and why of it all are way way beyond my meager abilities to comprehend. Do I believe in evolution? Sure, things evolve with time and change in small ways over large amounts of time. Do I believe humans were once apes? Nope. Sure don't. Do I believe we were once single cell bugs in a pond of water? Nope not really. Do I believe GOD could have used evolution in some way to get us to where we are? Sure.

It is hard to reconcile Adam being "the first man" and eve "the first woman. Them having Cane and Able and then after Cane killed Able he went out into the land of Nod and took a wife. Huh? He did what? From what did he do dat? If at the time there was only Adam, Eve and him? It's all very confusing to one who wants to believe what we're told in the Bible and to be realistic both.

As I've said I have no answers only questions. Makes my head hurt to think on such matters for long.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Makes my head hurt to think on such matters for long.
No pain no gain. :lol:

I'd just like all here & in the Bible study forum to be aware I'm seeking enlightenment & to be honest think I'm finding it. I in no way wish to detract from others beliefs, only to learn from them. Doesn't mean I'll accept their explanations or interpretations but rest assured I'll give them serious thought. :D
 
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