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Discussion Starter #1
This small blog is to show the way--different ways--man sees this subject.
While some will agree on one point or another is given and that all come from scripture is ALSO given.
Now, none would (well, some would) see scripture as being contradictory and, therefore; the differences.
Elwell writes in His dictionary--and, I do not copy but paraphrase for conciseness--on these views and I also use Geisler's book on "Christian Apologetics."
Whether one agrees with any one point or another is irrelevant too this blog for all Will come too some conclusions depending on a number of factors---and almost all will claim scriptural authority.
I also claim scriptural authority too be the basic tenant of faith.
The relationship of faith to reason is of utmost importance for the thinking believer. The problem of how too combine these aspects of personhood has existed from the earliest apologist.
"Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexander, and Tertullain all struggled. Augustine made the first serious attempt to relate the two, but the most comprehensive treatment came at the end of of the medieval period when Christian intellectualism flowered in the work of Thomas Aquinas.'
Faith and reason intertwine. Faith uses reason, and reason cannot succeed in finding truth without faith---reason cannot produce faith it is produced by God. Aquinas further commented that free will was inadequate for the act of faith since the contents of faith are above reason---see Ephesians 2.
There are three basic positions concerning man's choices: determinism, indeterminism, and self-determinism.
Theistic determinist such as Martin Luther and Johnathan Edwards (talk about two opposites attracting) trace man's actions back too God's controlling hand.
The final position is self-determinism, or free will. This belief is that man determines his own behavior freely, and that no causal antecedents can sufficiently account for his action.
This should stir some thought.
Blessings
 

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The street hustlers main tool--playing both ends against the middle.

That is not only a lie but damned lie, which may reward with Jesus saying "I never knew you"

One either stands for something or against it, anything in between by choice is fodder for slaughter.

IF ONE discovers one is wrong, then one adimitsi it and moves on; God tolerates ignorance by lack of knowedge, but one feigns ignorance for fear of having to make a choice, then the one is blaming God, based on cowardice.

Bob
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well, Bob, wrong may be this thru a glass darkly thing.
Wrong may be incorrect but not wrong.
Could it be that what we may consider "wrong" is just incorrect but not too be considered judged?
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Well Bob, there is much truth in what you say here, and I would REMIND you, to consider what you have said on THIS THREAD, to REPEAT it to yourself on another thread.

Romans Chapter 1 verse 28. And even as they DID NOT LIKE TO RETAIN GOD IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE, God GAVE THEM OVER, to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are NOT CONVENIENT;[/color]

This is yet another example GOD ALLOWING man to MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES, but having the knowledge, or being ignorant of it, will not be passed over by Him, if HIS, rules are not ACKNOWLEDGED AND OBEYED. ;)

P.S.
WEBSTERS
Wrong; without accuracy, INCORRECTLY, without regard for what is proper or just
Incorrect; not corrected, or chastened, not true, WRONG, unbecoming, improper

I would say that WRONG IS "INDEED" WRONG. Unless of course you are Bill Clinton.
 

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Dee said:
Well Bob, there is much truth in what you say here, and I would REMIND you, to consider what you have said on THIS THREAD, to REPEAT it to yourself on another thread.

Romans Chapter 1 verse 28. And even as they DID NOT LIKE TO RETAIN GOD IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE, God GAVE THEM OVER, to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are NOT CONVENIENT;[/color]

This is yet another example GOD ALLOWING man to MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES, but having the knowledge, or being ignorant of it, will not be passed over by Him, if HIS, rules are not ACKNOWLEDGED AND OBEYED. ;)

P.S.
WEBSTERS
Wrong; without accuracy, INCORRECTLY, without regard for what is proper or just
Incorrect; not corrected, or chastened, not true, WRONG, unbecoming, improper

I would say that WRONG IS "INDEED" WRONG. Unless of course you are Bill Clinton.
Well Dee Balaam was a hard learner but he did send the boys packing; now that he ended up dead, I don't know, so did Samson but perhaps it was that Balaam (and I do not know if he was a kahuna ruler or not) did not have his house in order, like Aaron, and God finally said enough was enough.
At the same time Caleb, who with Joshua, was one of two to survive the wandering and enter the promised land, and he was a VERY, VERY robust old fart, yet Caleb was not of Israel but an Anakin, so his free will made him great in God's eyes.
 

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It's hard to look at one's own self, and take the HIGH ROAD of, I missed that one. I have had to do this before, and it is NOTHING to be ashamed of. But I personally do NOT WANT TO TEACH, PREACH, or STATE FALSE DOCTRINE. If I intentionally do so, I AM RESPONSIBLE, of any affect in the negative sense it has on others. When someone shows me that I am wrong SCRIPTURALLY, I change that part of my belief IMMEDIATELY. That also is SCRIPTURAL, and WISE, to say the very least. This is about GOD, not me. If I make it about me, then I am putting myself before God, which is what Balaam did, while doing God's work.

But I would also go on to say that when your DOCTRINE IS CHALLENGED, don't be so "self righteous" to not check it with GOOD RELIABLE SOURCES, and THEN STAND FIRM NO MATTER WHAT "ANYONE" SAYS.
Christ was not a wimp, and our church PULPITS could use more Preachers with a strong dose of SPIRITUAL TESTOSTERONE in adverse to these "weak sister" types that are afraid to confront FALSE DOCTRINE, and FALSE TEACHERS.

We need more Nathans before David, 2nd Samuel Chapter 12 verse 7. Elijahs before King Ahab, 1st Kings Chapter 21 verse 20. Micaiah before King Ahab, 1st Kings Chapter 22 verse 14. Elishas before King Jehoram, 2nd Kings Chapter 3 verse 14. & Daniels before King Belshazzar, Daniel Chapter 2 verse 22.[/color]

Being a Christian that will stand up for SOUND DOCTRINE, rather than going along to get along, or agreeing to disagree when the scriptures are CLEAR is not easy. The lost and seeking are watching, and so is God.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Does God choose?
Does God allow us too choose?
Does God play any part in our choice?
The answer too all is yes.
Blessings
 

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quote author=williamlayton link=topic=128637.msg1098468898#msg1098468898 date=1193130006]
Does God choose?
Does God allow us too choose?
Does God play any part in our choice?Prove it, especially how the Father causes bad people to be bad.[/color]
The answer too all is yes.
Blessings
[/quote]
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Bob
I really think that our differences are on understanding of what and where we come from.
The Lord does give liberty and much of our everyday life is spent in an atmosphere of free will--doing what we want--right or wrong.
It is the matter of God's will--coming too faith that seems too be the crux of the difference.
It seems to me, from my reading of scripture and other folks take on this subject, my desperate attempt too see clearly, that God does choose His and those He chooses are vain in their attempt too avoid God's will.
Me sin as a natural results of their nature---men sin because they are sinners-not-men are sinners because they sin.
God's choosing is something I fought for a loooong time. you can read my post on this here too see that it is fairly recent that I rode this fence--leaning both ways.
You don't sin by seeing the free will side and I do no harm by taking another stance.
Do we know--well we take a side that does not make God bend too our thoughts.
Now, there is an obvious difference after we take a stance.
It is this free will that brings the law back into action---and I know the Lutheran stance on this, as well as Methodist and most Armenian--There is even a Baptist sect that would come very close too the Lutheran view, though, without the trappings brought from the Catholic split.
I don't condemn any for this thru a glass darkly stance---I may disagree, as do you, but, condemn or mouth adjectives and adverbs at the person seems a waste of energy.
You and I both will see the truth of the matter one day as long as we hold fast too the faith once given.

Now I have shown most recently one verse that says volumes on my thought--prove it is hardly one can do as you well know---show you why a stance is taken is probably the only thing any can do.
This blending of free will and perseverance is another subject and is the actual stance that is not understandable for me and the reason I took the final stance I take. It is trying too make free will, the law and perseverance compatible and I don't see it that way.
Now the Father doesn't cause bad people too be bad---saved or unsaved--He does come into play only on this forgiveness matter. If you are His you are forgiven. The others are not his and it matters not in the final outcome.
Blessings
 

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quote author=williamlayton link=topic=128637.msg1098471077#msg1098471077 date=1193485278]
Bob
Now the Father doesn't cause bad people too be bad---saved or unsaved--He does come into play only on this forgiveness matter. If you are His you are forgiven. The others are not his and it matters not in the final outcome.
Blessings
[/quote]
THE BIG difference is, those who believe in free will, the onus for any problems in their life is on THEM; in the predetermination cult, ALL is God's fault because it is all predetermined.

If you try to narrow it down to just whether one is saved or not, that does not work, as that is the only thing in life that matters (that is why Jesus came) and if it is predetermined as to whether or not one is saved or not, got out and raise ****, THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO.
Bob
 

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Are you saying Bob, that using Mr. Layton's theory, that God is the CAUSE of all the sin, because he PRE-DESTINED MEN TO BE LOST SINNERS? So Mr. Layton is laying all the misery in this world at GOD'S DOORSTEP, because He (God) is the culprit, and the cause?
So in other words if I understand you correctly, you are saying that under Mr. Layton's theory, all of this was PRE-PLANNED so to speak BY GOD, and He (God) SACRIFICED HIS SON ON THE CROSS FOR NOTHING?
That certainly would explain this predestination thing, wouldn't it?
Gosh, I wonder if we (you and I) are part of the ELETE, as Mr. Layton is, or are we the CONDEMED FROM BIRTH BUNCH? How do we find out, do we ask Mr. Layton? I mean, he should know shouldn't he? ;D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
How in the world can/could you get "God is the one who is the cause of misery" out of all that I said?
Does God know everything about everybody from the beginning and from the end--at the same instance?
Is God in control of the destiny of things?
Does God know everything about every person?
DOES GOD KNOW?
Was not God aware of all when He created angels?
Was God not aware when He created man?
Where is your complaint that God knows, and, if--and He does--He chooses who He will where is the pride---I can see more pride in free will than in predestination.
You see it as you want, it changes nothing----I see it as I believe--and--it changes nothing---where is the pride--the thanksgiving and praise too Him is all that I see.
Blessings
 

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We assume what God knows, we DO NOT know what God knows.

Knowing ALL may be one heck of a lot less than we think.

Because God said he knew you before you were born doe not mean he knows your choices, he, as we assume, knows all possible futures, and he deals with or allows as he sees fit. That is not the same as him pre-determining anything, period.

As I said before suicide is not God's will, it happens; God allows; God does not pre-determine as a rule.

You are using God is omnipotent, the Lord works in mysterious ways etc., etc. and other such clishes as an excuse not to deal with heads-up.
If nothing is ventured nothing is gained, in the parable talents were given to be used as the one chose. The one who buried his talents without veturing anyting was one who was damned, is there is no free will, what did he do wrong? Kind shoot s the God leads us by the nose theory up the old buttocks.
 

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quote author=williamlayton link=topic=128637.msg1098471595#msg1098471595 date=1193576886]
How in the world can/could you get "God is the one who is the cause of misery" out of all that I said?
Does God know everything about everybody from the beginning and from the end--at the same instance?
Is God in control of the destiny of things?The GOD alone is responsible for the evil, by your line of thought.
To say that is OK because God is God, is blaming God, but not caring because "God works in mysterious ways", it is also apathiy at its worst.[/color]

[/quote]
 

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Discussion Starter #15
By satan all evil entered the world.
This is not an end all comment, it will cause a stir.
Blessings
 

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williamlayton said:
By satan all evil entered the world.

No Bill it will not cause a stir. It is a CONTRADICTORY statement to predestination. Predestination by definition in the way you and others believe, is that GOD predestined everyone to be either SAVED OR LOST. Your above statement (or scripture) CONTRADICTS your belief in predestination. If God predestined everyone, then Satan had nothing to do with it. That is what predestination says in itself. Folks have a tendency to try and FUSE THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, and the word predestination, and they are NOT the same.[/color]

This is not an end all comment, it will cause a stir.
Blessings
 

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Discussion Starter #17
It is not contradictory.
God said this and God is not contradictory.
The difference is the causing.
God certainly is a father too many who suffer and live in misery.
Wealth and earthly security are not the hallmarks of salvation.
God does know His and He has known them from creation and from the end--the coming and the going.
I am at a loss too understand the stir caused by the thought of election.
A "cult" is without thinking and a knee jerk reaction.
Now, at some point in time, this will shallow out and the waters won't be so deep that the understanding can't be seen and the waters will not be as scary as it does now.
Why is it that one can deny that God knows his?
Blessings
 

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quote author=williamlayton link=topic=128637.msg1098473244#msg1098473244 date=1193824792]
It is not contradictory.
God said this and God is not contradictory.
The difference is the causing.
God certainly is a father too many who suffer and live in misery.
Wealth and earthly security are not the hallmarks of salvation.
God does know His and He has known them from creation and from the end--the coming and the going.
I am at a loss too understand the stir caused by the thought of election.
A "cult" is without thinking and a knee jerk reaction.
Now, at some point in time, this will shallow out and the waters won't be so deep that the understanding can't be seen and the waters will not be as scary as it does now.
Why is it that one can deny that God knows his?
Blessings
[/quote]
----------=========---------------=============
If God predestined (pre-planned) things, and God controls all, then he created Evil by allowing it to exist.

God knows what he knows, we DO NOT know what God truly knows, nor really even have a clue why Satan and evil were allowed to continue on, much less exist.

From creation: what creation? At what point in time? Satan will burn for eternity, rather than be eradicated, why if God created him from nothing does he not put him back to nothing?
Pre-determination or election on a scale beyond the few: the Baptist, the Prophets etc. makes God look like a powerless fool.

There is some absolute reason, beyond God being rather sadistic and fickle, that some things must be as they are, and God cannot change them.

Pre-determinists, like Pretorists, is foolishness based on not wanting to take a stand, and stand before God saying "I did this for these reasons, if I was wrong so be it, but it was my choice." Rather they choose a reality in which they do not have to fear what is to come becaue in one class, God controls all, and the other, all is done, this is as good as it gets.
As the parable shows, God does NOT LIKE, those who would play safe, because God knows best, rather than put their faith in God, and charge full speed ahead, simply, because they can.

Right or wrong, Balaam tried to force the Donkey forward, God finally had the Angel show him the error of his ways.
Was this God talking to himself, as he pre-determined this?

Now Bill one thing, for me, I believe there are occurances where God, for whatever reason, and probably because he does not like what man' s will, will produce, DOES take absolute control and force a change or eradicate to whatever is screwing things up totally, but this is rare.
Bob
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I understand Bob.
I think the differences are in our looking thru this glass darkly and coming to conclusions as we view scripture---one day we will know.
I take my knowing from what Paul says---the sparrow illustration and from John 1 and 1.
We are not far apart and we probably never--in this wisp of life--will come much closer, but that is OK.
Blessings
 
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