Greybeard, I read your post on the old forum about over sized hinge pins and decided not to put my two cents in until I did a little testing of my own. After experimenting on 4 different guns, both Encore and Contender, I came to the same conclusion you did. Tightening the hinge pins caused my groups to open up slightly. Not very much, but a measurabe amount. I have a theory as to why this is. Any thing that is manufactued can not be built exactly straight,square,perpendicular,round,or any thing else. there has to be tolerance. No frame/barrel lug holes can be bored exacly on the same axis, and no barrel lug can be bored exactly square to the lug itself. There fore if you remove all play from the hinge holes and hold the barrel completly rigid to the frame, you have ever so slightly tilted the locking lugs to the frame recess. Puting the frame to barrel in a twisting bind. And we all know that anything in a bind is bad for accuracy. I believe the pin needs a certain amount of play to correct this and allow the lockup to be more complete. Now before everyone who believes in overszed pins attacks me, I do think that an OS pin will definitly help if there is too much play. But as a general rule I believe the pin should be able to be removed without any help, especially from a mallet. I may still catch a lot of flack from this but its just my theory. What do you think? KN
Greybeard/Hinge pins
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I don't really have any theories on the "why" just my observations of the results I had after a thorought test of it. There are a lot of things that contribute to the accuracy or inaccuracy of a gun or TC barrel. Changing any one thing can make a large, small or no change. I cannot state categorically that the over size pins will never help or always hurt. But it is my experience it sure didn't help on my barrels and guns.
I see lots of Bellm fans touting the over size pins as the greatest accuracy enhancer ever to come along. Maybeso for them but I doubt it. I think that just because it came from him they assume it had to help and so aren't gonna do a test as you did and I have to prove or disprove it one way or another.
I just don't think that with the design of the TC system that the fit of the hinge pin is a major factor in accuracy. My loose as a goose old blue frame is still able to shoot 1/2 MOA with barrels and loads up to it. Moving those same barrels to my newer and tighter fit frames don't help and neither did the over size hinge pins on that frame. Didn't tighten groups with highly accurate or middle of the road accurate barrels. I don't attempt to explain them I just report them as I see them.
GB
I see lots of Bellm fans touting the over size pins as the greatest accuracy enhancer ever to come along. Maybeso for them but I doubt it. I think that just because it came from him they assume it had to help and so aren't gonna do a test as you did and I have to prove or disprove it one way or another.
I just don't think that with the design of the TC system that the fit of the hinge pin is a major factor in accuracy. My loose as a goose old blue frame is still able to shoot 1/2 MOA with barrels and loads up to it. Moving those same barrels to my newer and tighter fit frames don't help and neither did the over size hinge pins on that frame. Didn't tighten groups with highly accurate or middle of the road accurate barrels. I don't attempt to explain them I just report them as I see them.
GB
Everyone might be overlooking one other aspect, If a shooter really believes using something will help improve accuracy, when they use it, it will make them shoot more accurate. It is a physical factor.
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Pj, That may true but if I convince (brain wash) enough people that by pitting a hole in your forend will it will shrink the groups. A lot of people will take it to heard ant will swear that the hole is what cause the groups to shrink. some people will believe anything others will have to try it with an open mind and see if it really works.
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HINGE PINS
Hinge pins and accuracy are like golf balls and distance. If there is enough hype, people will belive it to be so. I work in golf sales and I see this everyday. People who have to hit a 100 compression golf ball won't try anything else. Then they find a ball one day and decide to hit it and ,WOW, that ball went 20 yards farther then my old one. This is great, but if they knew that it was only 80 or 85 compression, they would have just thrown it back in the woods. I purchased an oversized pin for my Contender but have not tested it yet.
The fact is, if a person thinks it will improve the way they shoot, it probably will. If they don't think it will it probably won't. In most cases, the first step in becomeing better at something is to think you can. If you don't feel you can get better. you won't.
Hinge pins and accuracy are like golf balls and distance. If there is enough hype, people will belive it to be so. I work in golf sales and I see this everyday. People who have to hit a 100 compression golf ball won't try anything else. Then they find a ball one day and decide to hit it and ,WOW, that ball went 20 yards farther then my old one. This is great, but if they knew that it was only 80 or 85 compression, they would have just thrown it back in the woods. I purchased an oversized pin for my Contender but have not tested it yet.
The fact is, if a person thinks it will improve the way they shoot, it probably will. If they don't think it will it probably won't. In most cases, the first step in becomeing better at something is to think you can. If you don't feel you can get better. you won't.
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RickyP I think what you say is very much truth. I honestly think both the hinge pin and the rechambers a certain unnamed individual do both fit into this category. I say this based on experience with the same barrels others say won't shoot without this treatment. I haven't had the problems and have worked out all of my factory barrel inaccuracies either by load development or in one single case by returning the barrel to TC for replacement. I've had most of the barrels that supposedly just will not shoot without a rechamber by our "expert" and I've gotten MOA from every single one of them just as they left the factory.
Many many log years ago (So many in fact that I studied it back in the mid 60s in training classes) a study was conducted to improve performance in a factory. This study concluded more light was needed. Viola after adding the light production improved. For awhile. More study really indicate that the attention the folks were given was really what improved production. This relates to what you mentioned. If someone believes in anything they try harder just as the factory workers tried harder while they were being shown attention. It really does work to that extent. They try harder and thus do better and then attribute the improvement to the thing that gave them the incentive rather than to their trying harder.
I'm aware of these studies and these tendencies in people. When I do a test I refuse to be swayed by what I'm told is supposed to be the result. I do my dead level best to put in the same level of effort both with and without the supposed aids when I'm comparing the before and after. It has to show me it works that way for me to accept it as fact.
In doing that I have yet to see a rechambered barrel shoot better than it did before the rechamber no matter who did the work. I've also not had one shoot noticeably worse. I've yet to own a TC Factory barrel chambered in a bottle necked cartridge that wouldn't shoot MOA with several loads after a reasonable amount of load development. The worse was the .223 I returned to the factory as it just was defective. The one I got in replacement would shoot MOA for three shots but that's not my measurement for a barrel so chambered so I still do not accept that factory .223 barrels are sufficiently accurate to meet my standards. I've also never yet seen a custom barrel or custom rechamber that didn't take some load development to deliver top notch accuracy. Perhaps a bit easier to find loads it likes but still not all loads are MOA in them. Some factory barrels like your 7-30 and most others in that caliber I've seen as well as the two 6 TCU custom shop barrels I've owned have given truly amazing accuracy equal to any custom barrel I've ever seen.
GB
Many many log years ago (So many in fact that I studied it back in the mid 60s in training classes) a study was conducted to improve performance in a factory. This study concluded more light was needed. Viola after adding the light production improved. For awhile. More study really indicate that the attention the folks were given was really what improved production. This relates to what you mentioned. If someone believes in anything they try harder just as the factory workers tried harder while they were being shown attention. It really does work to that extent. They try harder and thus do better and then attribute the improvement to the thing that gave them the incentive rather than to their trying harder.
I'm aware of these studies and these tendencies in people. When I do a test I refuse to be swayed by what I'm told is supposed to be the result. I do my dead level best to put in the same level of effort both with and without the supposed aids when I'm comparing the before and after. It has to show me it works that way for me to accept it as fact.
In doing that I have yet to see a rechambered barrel shoot better than it did before the rechamber no matter who did the work. I've also not had one shoot noticeably worse. I've yet to own a TC Factory barrel chambered in a bottle necked cartridge that wouldn't shoot MOA with several loads after a reasonable amount of load development. The worse was the .223 I returned to the factory as it just was defective. The one I got in replacement would shoot MOA for three shots but that's not my measurement for a barrel so chambered so I still do not accept that factory .223 barrels are sufficiently accurate to meet my standards. I've also never yet seen a custom barrel or custom rechamber that didn't take some load development to deliver top notch accuracy. Perhaps a bit easier to find loads it likes but still not all loads are MOA in them. Some factory barrels like your 7-30 and most others in that caliber I've seen as well as the two 6 TCU custom shop barrels I've owned have given truly amazing accuracy equal to any custom barrel I've ever seen.
GB
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