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Is it just my suspicious nature or is there an elitist conspiracy within the gun industry and some shooting organizations? The cause of my wonderment is, some of the big BPCR matches refuse to allow the use of the Buffalo Classic in there matches.

I have not seen this to be the case in smaller local matches where everyone is just glad to be there and share the friendship and sport.

Now I would think that in a time when we are trying to bring people to the shooting sports we would be a little more open minded about allowing new shooters into the game. It is my thinking that an affordable rifle like the B.C. would be just the ticket for such a thing. Not all people can afford a Sharps or a Ballard.

I understand that there is the desire to keep things in historical context, but isn't the break action single shot one of the older action designs out there. The Maynard is a break action.

Or perhaps I was sitting out front of the principals office when the teachers was teaching the others about the buffalo rifles that were imported from Italy and Spain in the 1870s.


nuff said
 

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BC

I fully agree! However, the "Sharps" boys will give you no end of grief for suggesting it. Until the NRA silhouette committee changes the rules, they won't be legal; even though not everyone can afford to drop $2000.00 on a Shiloh.
The small matches around here don't care that I'm using a Buffalo Classic...........well, up to the point that I'm close to winning......and then they pull out the book.
 

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BPCR competetion was one of the reasons I bought my BC in the first palce. Then i found out there were not legal. That was also one of the reasons I sold it. I'd still like to compete in one but with a sharps, but cannot afford that so where does that leave me?

I feel your pain, but rules are rules. Oh well. Guess we'll just have to shoot and enjoy.
 

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You know I get the same type of stuff from the purist when it comes to muzzleloaders, they give me a hard time about the in-line not being a true muzzleloader. They want everyone using a side hammer caplock or flintlock. Then I pull out the books and show them where inlines are older than their Hawkins. That shuts them up for a while. They just want to be a small eletist group that think they are the only ones that are right, when it comes to muzzleloaders. They really come unglued when they see me loading triple 7.
 

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It's not only with the Buff -Classics...and the in-lines...but pull up a bench next to someone who has a Ruger #1...and watch their expression when you pull out a Handi... :eek: ....but ...I just wish I had a camera rolling on their faces...when we compare groups :) :) :)

Priceless...simply Priceless......

I know what everyone is feeling...I get the same thing when telling all my so-called friends about how accurate they can be...or the simplicity of the rifle...but..it does no-good...

Oh Well...as they say...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and if they don't want to hold err...then they will never know what their missing :D

Mac
 

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I put a BC on layaway a few days ago. I WAS considering looking for the odd rifle match once in awhile. I even registered on the BPCR site. I may reconsider. Might be time to stir things up a bit over there and see why BC's aren't allowed at matches

Sounds like the same sort of gun-snobbery I encountered in IPSC and IDPA.

ZM
 

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From what I was once told, the BC's aren't allowed due to their automatic ejectors and nonoriginal sights.

That may change though if you have a BC with extractor and historical accurate sights.
 

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Thanks Zeke, I would like to know too.
 

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Over the years I;ve tried my hand a several of the shooting games and have always found myelf out spent, rarely out shot, but most definately out spent. IPSC had to actually create a class for the kind of gun the game originally was intended to be fired with. Go figure. I had an interest in this for a while but found that I couldn't afford to play. Too bad for them, they are missing out on a great shooter and a great fella :) :roll: :) :roll: If your local matches are allowing you to shoot with them go for it. Most of the folks there are probably more into the fun of it anyway. There is a club about 2 hours from here that has shoots concurrent with BPCR matches for the unsactioned shooters, you can even use smokeless and duplex loads in your BC or your 1895 for that matter, but no scores count for anything.

In the end of it, I think the rules were made up by a bunch of folks who were somewhat vested in roleplaying their ideas of being a buffalo hunter, not creating a game of broad inclusion for mass consumption. Too bad. You can shoot DCMP courses with a $400 Garand, prolly won't take a national trophy, but you can shoot on the same line with a fella with a 2 grand rifle. Can't do that in BPCR. I don't think the people at NRA who make the game rules are talking to the folks who want to see the shooting sports grow.

'Course it could all be that the snobs don't want to be reminded that a great many buffallo were killed by folks on horseback with '73's. Not so sporting, but it was highly effective.

What we really need is for NEF to reissue the H&R Trapdoor in both 50-70 and 45-70, then we can show up and trounch 'em with a $400 dollar rifle they can't throw out of the game.
 

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Yes, it is! What is interesting is what they do allow to compete. The Browning and Italian high wall copies are not internally the same as the original high walls. So why are they allowed in?

E.D.
 

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I've solved the problem of the elite crownd by only shooting beer cans while alone. I don't go to a public range and nobody but me ever sees my guns or my groups. I did a little competitive shooting in the Army but never got into it once I got out. Guess I'm just a hermit.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yep, that would be great if H&R would bring back the Trapdoor in 50/70 or 45/70. Or even better yet, why not a Maynard?
 

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Warning! Sarcasim Ahead.

I shot IPSC for years with street gear and single stacks. I noticed that as USPSA progressed, the more snobby and elitist it got. Same with IDPA. Once a particular sport whether it is IPSC or twiddlywinks becomes popular, the hardcore gamers and "win at all cost guys" guys show up and hose it up for everyone.

I made the mistake of winning a stage out right with my LW Commander. Two OPEN class guys claimed I was cheating? with a single stack carry gun? The RO and MD went over my gun, gear and chrono'd my ammo. (Federal white box store bought ). Left a bad taste in my mouth.

I doubt I am a big threat to the usual supspects that play at the BPCR matches or any other match for that matter. My eyesight betrays me at about 250-300 yards. The best I can do is hitting orange clay targets at 300 yards with a Mosin 91/30 Tula ex-sniper. After that I need a scope.

I still want to know the technical reason for excluding the BC. Maybe the folks that run the matches get a cut from the sales of those $2000 rifles. Not much of a cut from a $300 rifle.

I am still trying to find out if I can use the BC at CAS side matches without having to shoot the whole match.

This is my opinion. Your opinion may vary.

ZM

P.S. There is still the theory about the UFO's, and the One-Armed Man behind the grassy knoll at Roswell. :wink:
 

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Based on a couple of replies I got. I don't think I want to shoot the BPCR matches even if I had a Sharps or similar rifle.

The CAS guys don't seem to mind the BC and it looks like I can shoot their side matches only if I choose. I am sending out some e-mails to see what I can find around here within driving distance.

ZM
 

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There is a-lot of snobs controling most of the sanctioned sports...and the last thing they want to see happen is a bunch of Handi owners showing up and out shooting folks who have invested $2000 and up on a rifle. I've shot around a bunch of benchrest guys...who shoot regularly in NRA approved matches..and the likes..and they really do look down on folks who buy off the rack..or haven't spent as much as they have.Not all mind you..but enough of them that does indeed like that sour taste in your mouth.

They kinda do this :roll: when you show up with a Handi..I imagine they are thinking...Ohh Good Grief...there goes the neighborhood...That kind of attitude really used to burn my britches..but not anymore...I just laugh at them...then...and when I walk to the target laugh even more....and when they ask "What's so funny ?"...and they usually do...I laugh at them again and say..." How much did you spend for that gun????...Those types usually don't stick around...but those that are really interested in them.... will...

Soooner or later...one of the so-called writers will Re-Discover the Buff Classic...and when they do...I'll bet they change the rules again...or make another class...

Mac
 

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Too bad. You can shoot DCMP courses with a $400 Garand, prolly won't take a national trophy, but you can shoot on the same line with a fella with a 2 grand rifle. Can't do that in BPCR
Yes you can. My local reloader guy has several sharps replicas on the rack for under $600.

What we really need is for NEF to reissue the H&R Trapdoor in both 50-70 and 45-70, then we can show up and trounch 'em with a $400 dollar rifle they can't throw out of the game
If nef does reintroduce that gun, it won't be a $400 rifle! :shock: Besides, they are pretty regularly for sale used and near new at the gun shows and usually for over $600. I sold an original recently on Auction Arms for $450. Guess you shoulda been there :grin:

And, good luck trouncing the rest of the field with an nef trapdoor or an original. It's not going to happen! Face it, it's like said in this thread, the guys who are really into the game are going all out to win and they aren't shooting trapdoors, are they?

If the high level competitors don't want the BC in the game, it's not because they fear the competition of the BC. If the BC were such a highly competitive rifle they would probably let it in and go buy them and get rid of their Sharps or High wall. :?

Hope nobody is too offended by my observations but cripes sakes you guys, get real.
 

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Longcruise:
If the high level competitors don't want the BC in the game, it's not because they fear the competition of the BC. If the BC were such a highly competitive rifle they would probably let it in and go buy them and get rid of their Sharps or High wall. Confused
I kinda see it different..I see it as a catch 22 situation.... If no one is allowed to shoot them in the matches...then a-lot of folks won't know that much about them...and if they aren't being shot ...most writers won't write about them ...namely because they aren't allowed in in the first place..and also for their predetimined attitude against them...Some of the ones I've seen are just as accurate as a-lot of the Sharps or Pedersoils...and more depends on the guy pulling the trigger...and there are a-lot of folks out there that won't even give our Handi's a second look...they see them as cheap junky rifles...no-matter how good they shoot....I know...I have talked with some folks that feel that way...I'm not saying everyone is like that...but there are enough of them participating in all the different classes that are of the same mind...and the sad part is there are a-lot of people who listen to them and heed their advice..and... as long as the Buff isn't getting good press or is allowed into the matches..most guys won't know about it...

I'm sure it also has to do with where your at.. at the time...so..as far as getting real...been there...done that....and I still laugh at them... :)

Mac
 

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I'm sure it also has to do with where your at.. at the time...so..as far as getting real...been there...done that....and I still laugh at them...
Mac, not going to fault your sense of humor, only your reasoning! :)

If no one is allowed to shoot them in the matches...then a-lot of folks won't know that much about them...and if they aren't being shot ...most writers won't write about them ...
If you follow the link posted to the BPCRnet forum you will find several posts there by at least three people who just might know more about the shooting charachteristcis of the BC than many of the owners of them!! :shock:

Highly competitive BPCR shooters are not going to the gun press to learn their shooting discipline. The writers of the gun press are going to the shooters (and some of them to the specific ones on the above thread) to learn about BPCR.

One shooter/writer who knows both sides is Mike Venturino. Why don't you ask him how he would compare the shooting qualities of the BC with a well made Sharps replica or original rifle? Or, ask Steve Garbe how he would compare them. Both of those guys are super gentleman and respectful of all shooters. Either will give you an honest opinion.

It seems like we have a mix of opinions running through this thread including a conspiracy to keep the BC out, a lack of appropriate respect for the BC and a dissatisfaction with the official rule book on BPCR.

Let's face it, the rules were written in a certain "spirit" and there is no reason to interepret the enforcment of the rules as being in a mean spirit. The idea was to create a shooting discipline dedicated to to pre 1896 black powder cartridge rifles. The BC does not qualify. It's not a conspiracy, it's just a bunch of dedicated shooters trying to preserve the integrity of their shooting discipline. So, if you want the rules changed then work on that aspect.

As far as the BC getting the respect it deserves, it only needs to be seen in action. As more people go out and shoot the BC on public ranges and demonstrate it's shooting qualities, the rifle will get the respect it's due, whatever that may be.

A recurring scenario often related on this forum is that of the nef shooter showing up at the range with his "cheap" nef and printing tiny groups compared to the "snobs" with their high dollar guns. I ain't never seen it happen! :shock: I belong to a club with over 700 members and with a range that stretches to 500 meters. All types of shooters are members; BPCR shooters, service rifle shooters, high power shooters, plinkers, etc., etc. The only time I have ever seen the scenario of the nef shooting alongside the "snob" shooters, the nef's (my 30-30, .223, .308) were perfectly upstaged by the remchesters. OTOH, I can reach to the rack and pull out a K31 or a Tikka and reverse the roles (that's not a brag and is stated only for the benefit of those who will tell me it's the shooter and not the guns :) )

So, once again, not trying to be personal, but get over it :grin:

If you want to shoot BPCR then get a $549 replica, about $200 dollars worth of sights (which you would need for the BC as well), learn to load BP in a brass case and go do it. It's a lot simpler, and more fun, to get involved in BPCR within the framework of the rules as they exist than to sit on the outside and gripe cause they won't change the game to suit you.
 

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Loncruise....
A recurring scenario often related on this forum is that of the nef shooter showing up at the range with his "cheap" nef and printing tiny groups compared to the "snobs" with their high dollar guns. I ain't never seen it happen! Shocked I belong to a club with over 700 members and with a range that stretches to 500 meters. All types of shooters are members; BPCR shooters, service rifle shooters, high power shooters, plinkers, etc., etc. The only time I have ever seen the scenario of the nef shooting alongside the "snob" shooters, the nef's (my 30-30, .223, .308) were perfectly upstaged by the remchesters. OTOH, I can reach to the rack and pull out a K31 or a Tikka and reverse the roles (that's not a brag and is stated only for the benefit of those who will tell me it's the shooter and not the guns Smile )

So, once again, not trying to be personal, but get over it Very Happy

Where I shoot...they have all kinds of shooters...from the Secrete Service and Federal Marshalls...to us every guys...shooting every imaginable rifle.....I know what happens when I take my inexpensive Handi's to the range...I usually wind up getting a good laugh at few folks. for their attitutudes....then letting several interested non-snobs shoot mine... :)

I really can't help what happens where you shoot...maybe there just isn't enough accurate Handi's making out to your club? :) ...I do know that mine will shoot neck and neck with some of the best bolt guns there...and for a whole lot less money.Maybe I'm lucky...or maybe I just know how to shoot them good...who knows...but the fact of the matter is I have a ball when shooting mine along side someone who's spent $2k and up......so much in fact that I've sold my only remaining bolt gun...and will use nothing but my NEF's for all my centerfire needs...for a while.

As to getting the rules changed to allow the Buff's in...it wouldn't hurt the sport one bit...and would allow a bunch of Handi owners the chance to participate...

I also know my Handi's aren't bench rest guns...but please...don't tell them that...you might hurt their feelings....they don't know any better..and I'm certainly not telling them anytime soon... :-D :) :-D

Mac
 
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