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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.4 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Here is another admonition for the Christian to be steadfast. Some questions that come to mind.
What is the focus of the steadfastness?
Our strength to stand?
Something else?

lc


 

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These verses are the thorn I referred to in the first part of the study.
James is clearly writing to his Jewish contemporaries in language that they can relate too.
The SIN he is referring to is the same sin that Paul refers too in Hebrews.
It is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. It is not fleshly sin, the one so common to all and the one referred to by Paul in Romans.
The only sin which is unforgivable is the sin of denying Christ and who He is.
James refers to this sin as returning to unbelief/denying.
I am an ardent student of the perseverance of the saints by faith. I can also see that apostasy is taught in the scriptures.
This, I think is what James is talking about in these verses.
This will take more discussion than in this short blurb of mine.
Blessings
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The phrase "When he has stood", in KJV, "when he is tried" seems to mean when he is approved.
Matthew Henry commentary likens this to the testing of metal after dross is burned off. The proofing of that faith to be genuine and true is the way that I'm reading that.

So do we take away the message that true faith, when tested, will bring forth that which is purposed?

lc


PS. Looks like I made a mistake in combining vs 12 with 13-18.

PPS A general question concerning trial and difficulty in life. How much of our lives, destiny, etc, do we actually determine or do we simply respond to those circumstances with which we are presented?
 

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The "tempted" is the same word Paul uses in I Corinthians 10:13, where he says, in part,"that "God...will not allow you to tempted beyond what you are able to bear, and...will provide the way of escape." (Read the whole verse.) It's also the word used in Hebrews 4: 15 to say that "Christ was tempted just as we are, yet did not sin."

I think the "temptation" is mostly about the desire to sin. Yes, it could be the temptation toward apostasy, which is just another form of sin. The encouragement toward steadfastness could be for either one, or both.

It's been my experience that Satan knows my weaknesses and finesses things to put specific temptations, tailored to those weaknesses, in my path. I keep relying on the power of the Holy Spirit working in me to avoid or overcome those temptations. It ain't easy, even with divine help. I just keep thinking, "The reward for endurance is out of this world".
 

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It is not about endurance to become sinless---Isiah tells us differently.
It is to endure the persecutions & the attempts of Satan to get us to worship him. He tried this same tact with Christ, three times.
Apostasy is not just another sin of the flesh. There is only one sin that is not forgiveable. That sin is unbelief---otherwise the Unitarians and Universalised have strong argument.
What apostasy is, is in fact, a situation that many say cannot happen. I agree to the point that fleshly/worldly sin cannot bring this happening about. As a matter of fact I don't understand how it can happen.
I see it taught in the scriptures without explanation--just a telling that it is possible.
We/Christians give place to sin in so many ways/so often that we become complacent and satisfied with status quo that we don't allow the Holy Spirit to be our guide. I see, in myownself, so much sin, so often that I often get tangled up in this feeling of, quite honestly, failure and hatred of myownself. I understand completely, Pauls rants on this subject---then I look at the goal, the end.
Life is really such a whisp in time, it passes so quickly.
Endure to the end is the only thing we can do.
Blessings
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.4 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[/color]


How do these two verses then wrap up the thought of endurance/enduring to the end?

Is "the good gift and perfect gift" that wisdom in each situation to understand the circumstance from the perspective that God, in His providence, has allowed us to suffer for our completion?
lc
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
wl,
I think that grace is the answer. Even in what you said about the hatred of sin in your own life. That really resonates with me. As God's glory is exposed our sinfulness is all the more illuminated and we see our need for Christ, the Cross, Mercy, the Blood to cover us. Maybe it's that grace is the essence or at the base of all the good and perfect gifts, those gifts that God gives for our good and growth; no matter their form (comfortable or uncomfortable).

Just trying to understand those statements in the flow of the text on suffering and asking for wisdom.

lc
 

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Forgiveness of all sins not associated with unbelief are covered by the blood--the blood does not cover unbelief.
It is the how we go from faith to unbelief that I cannot verbalize- I can speak of Pharow hardening his heart and the God hardening his heart.
Some have tried to say that this is before faith was accomplished. I just can't make that reach.
Blessings
 

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(Heb 10:23)[/color] Let us hold fast the profession of our[/color][/size] faith without wavering; (for he [/color]is[/color][/size] faithful that promised;)[/color] (Heb 10:24)[/color] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:[/color] (Heb 10:25)[/color] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [/color]is;[/color][/size] but exhorting [/color]one another:[/color][/size] and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.[/color] (Heb 10:26)[/color] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,[/color] (Heb 10:27)[/color] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.[/color] (Heb 10:28)[/color] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:[/color] (Heb 10:29)[/color] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?[/color] (Heb 10:30)[/color] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [/color]belongeth[/color][/size] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.[/color] (Heb 10:31)[/color][/color]It is[/color][/size] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 

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A really interesting study is to look at spiritual gifts...those helps given to us by the Holy Spirit for use in the family of God.

I think that here in James, the idea of "good and perfect" gifts stands in opposition to the "gifts" of Satan. Satan gives us gifts that will destroy us if we give in to the temptations involved. God's gifts are good for us and for His purposes. Wisdom comes from recognizing both kinds for what they are, and using God's gifts as He intends.

Steadfastness, in the form of patience/longsuffering/self-control is a gift of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and is finetuned by use (James 1:2-3).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
mechanic said:
(Heb 10:23)[/color] Let us hold fast the profession of our[/color] faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) (Heb 10:24) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: (Heb 10:25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Heb 10:28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (Heb 10:29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. (Heb 10:31)It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
mechanic,
Not sure where you are going with this quote. Can you put a little meat on the bone for me. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

Thanks,
lc
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
reliquary said:
A really interesting study is to look at spiritual gifts...those helps given to us by the Holy Spirit for use in the family of God.

I think that here in James, the idea of "good and perfect" gifts stands in opposition to the "gifts" of Satan. Satan gives us gifts that will destroy us if we give in to the temptations involved. God's gifts are good for us and for His purposes. Wisdom comes from recognizing both kinds for what they are, and using God's gifts as He intends.

Steadfastness, in the form of patience/longsuffering/self-control is a gift of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and is finetuned by use (James 1:2-3).
I would agree to the point that temptations can damage us and that we must pay the consequences for our sins. Where was it that Paul says that he had given some believer over to Satan? I believe the emphasis was that the consequence of their willful sin would bring them to repentance.

To me, one of the hardest things is remembering that suffering brings about good IF faced in Wisdom. I've faced these difficulty with my wisdom too many times. Learning to rest in Christ in spite of doubt and fear is an amazing thing.

lc
 

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Little Canoe,

Hebrews 10 is obviously an exegesis written to the Christian. He admonishes to "hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering",

He says if we sin willfully, AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, we are "trodding underfoot the Son of God", and there remains no more sacrifice for sins" Christ is it. If we reject Him, even after we have received Him, we risk the vengeance of God.


I added these verses in responce to Wm's post previous, when he said "sins not associated with unbelief are covered with the blood".

I agree, but to reject the Son, puts us in the face of God and His vengeance.

The passage also states, "The Lord shall judge His people".

Some have stated that Christians will not be judged. I believe that all men will be judged.

To think that we can name the name of Christ, without making changes in attitude and life is a dangerous thing.

To abandon and reject Christ, even after acceptance, is a dangerous thing.

Ben
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
mechanic said:
Little Canoe,

Hebrews 10 is obviously an exegesis written to the Christian. He admonishes to "hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering",

He says if we sin willfully, AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, we are "trodding underfoot the Son of God", and there remains no more sacrifice for sins" Christ is it. If we reject Him, even after we have received Him, we risk the vengeance of God.


I added these verses in responce to Wm's post previous, when he said "sins not associated with unbelief are covered with the blood".

I agree, but to reject the Son, puts us in the face of God and His vengeance.

The passage also states, "The Lord shall judge His people".

Some have stated that Christians will not be judged. I believe that all men will be judged.

To think that we can name the name of Christ, without making changes in attitude and life is a dangerous thing.

To abandon and reject Christ, even after acceptance, is a dangerous thing.

Ben
Thanks brother!

I love Hebrews but need to do some in depth studying. There are some Amazing! things there.

I can see a link in thought and admonition between this Hebrews passage and these verses of James 1. Instruction of Hebrew believers was the object of the writer. They were having to unlearn reliance on national pride, heritage, bloodlines etc. They were having to learn to rest in Christ through faith.

When their world was rocked by the dispersion, they were still immature in some respects? They needed to rest in faith. Not their ability or a return to the law.

That seems to be the message there in Hebrews. Hey guys! Remember that you can come boldly before the throne! The veil is torn and you can enter the into the Holy place through Christ. I can see an admonishment there to rest in grace and a contrast that those who go on sinning and rejecting Christ and holding to the law are beyond sacrifice because there is nothing beyond Christ. Symbolism has been fulfilled with substance in Christ.

I don't understand Ch 10 as a teaching on backsliding/apostacy but more of the above.
I see a parallel to 1 John where belief is contrasted to unbelief throughout the book.
1 John 3:9 has an interesting word. Seed. Seed in the Greek here is Sperma. Sperma!! Wow! John is talking about a spiritual DNA thing here. John teaches that the believer doesn't sin (follow a pattern of sin) because of Christ in us! This is contrasted to the earlier statement that John made in this book that if we say that we have no sin the truth is not in us. A full recognition of sin in the body but a strong command to examine self and keep from patterns of sin, this being the mark of the true believer.

Didn't mean to go down the rabbit trail there but there is some connection between those verses through the audience and what they were being taught. Good stuff this!

lc
 

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LC: I'm a little behind...the verse about "delivering such a one to Satan" is I Corinthians 5:5.

Most of Hebrews is a reminder to Jewish Christians (of that time) of how the Law of Moses led them to christ and there should not be/nust not be any returning to that Law; salvation is through christ, not the Law. Paul also preached that from the late AD 50s onward; that's what got him in trouble in Jerusalem. Hebrews is also a reminder not to sin wilfully. Some of it sounds a lot like what Paul wrote in other places, but the author is unknown.

Hebrews says that we all must face judgment (9:27), but we as Christians...if we remain in Christ...have, for all practical purposes, already been judged and found "not guilty". Christ took our sin upon Himself and gave us His righteousness (II Corinthians 5:21, Romans 5:8-11). We can have boldness in the day of judgment (I John 4:17) because God the Judge is also God the Son who saved us.

Good thoughts, folks! Keep 'em coming.
 

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I didn't notice til you pointed to them.

There is not much more you can say about Hebrews. It is a powerful and deep read.
While I am not overly concerned with apostacy I wonder about it more.
Blessings
 
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