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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, Let's jump into the next section of text. I won't be able to comment on it this AM but you guys go ahead and I'll catch up tonight.

James 1:2-11
2 Count it all joy, my brothers,2 when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
9 Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, 10 and the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass3 he will pass away. 11 For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits.



lc
 

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may we all be humble when we pray. I can look back over my life at the different crossroads where God has prodded me in the right direction. humble prayer works.
 

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Walk in FAITH, and pray for GODLY Discernment, which will eradicate doubt in God and self. Like common sense. It ain't so common anymore, and many a statement concerning scripture is made without true GODLY Discernment of what that scripture actually says contextually speaking.[/color]
These are good scriptures to examine ones SELF daily canoe. Excellent![/color]
 

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He's making several points:

Your faith will be tested. There's no such thing as a free ride in Christianity. Many folks in the early days of the church had been run out of Jerusalem just ahead of a howling mob led by Saul of Tarsus. Many folks that had James' letter read to them in the synagogues faced ostracism from their Jewish friends and families for being Christians. Others were being persecuted just for being Jewish.

"Perfect" probably means "coming to a point of completion", or "becoming mature", rather than "sinless or spotless". Mature faith comes through a growth process and produces the ability to persevere.

James gives us several good thoughts on prayers.: God answers prayers. I appreciate the thought that was voiced that James was nicknamed "Camelknees" because he spent so much time on them in prayer. Good example for all of us. Prayers must be asked in the assurance that God will answer them if they are asked in faith and for the right reasons (4:2-3) (5:13-18).

Don't depend on worldly things to save you.
 

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All true reliquary. Just like folks enjoying quoting [/color]John Chapter 3 verse 16[/color]. Great verse, but they need to read[/color] 17, 18, 19, 20, ect[/color]. It just doesn't stop at 16. Some also say: All you have to do is "trust Jesus". It's pretty hard to trust someone you don't really know anything about. Thusly, PRAY "for understanding", and[/color] "Study" to show thyself approved[/color], in whom exactly Jesus is, and what is expected of His followers.[/color]
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Good work fella's!

littlecanoe said:
James 1:2-11
2 Count it all joy, my brothers,2 when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Verse 2 hits me like a ton of brick. Consider it JOY!! JOY? ???

Considering what we understand of the conditions from which these brothers and sisters had fled this is a strong statement. Loss of home, family, fortune, livelihood and business. Count the loss of these things as pure joy. Joy in Greek: chara 1. cheerfulness, i.e. calm delight. Delight in suffering? Delight in suffering!

Here is the price of the call. In the sermons on and following the sermon on the mount Christ made demands, explained the call. It will cost you everything. These believers were finding that the call was literal for them rather than an spiritual commitment. It was required of them that they sacrifice greatly.

There must have been great discord. What's happening here? Are we not doing what we are supposed to do? This is what happens? Then calming words from a beloved pastor who had nurtured them in their faith just a few years ago. Brothers, be comforted, count it JOY when you suffer. Don't despair. Recognize this for what it is. God is bringing the blessing of growing you in the faith.

As you suffer, count it joy because you absolutely know that the testing of your faith, your persuasion and credence works to make you complete in every part.



This is a message that I am trying to teach my children. How do we respond to difficulty and trial? How do I respond to the neighbor who I can do nothing to please? How do I respond to the frustrations of work or career that burden me down? What are MY various trials? Do I kick against them like Saul kicking against the goads?

God give us GRACE to recognize the difficulties of this life and rather than struggling in our own strength, back up and consider that God in His providence and sovereignty has allowed these issues to come into our life to strengthen our faith. And what is the strengthening of our faith? To know that God is faithful to do what He has said, to care for His own. Sometimes this caring is in ways that Grow us but are not comfortable to or for us.

Paul:
Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because6 the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,7 for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
 

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James1: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Has anyone put these scriptures to the test?
 

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I think that these verses are taken out of context/misunderstood more than any in the bible.
This is enevitably preached when it comes time to discuss doctrine.
It has nothing to do with a person wavering on doctrine.
When you trust God, do you really trust God or are you hope you can trust God to perform as you wish?
Trusting is most difficult for man, as man likes to be part of the control process.
Trust God is letting it go. Asking and letting go. Will He give you the wisdom you require? In His time.
I have put it to the test--I have often lost the testing.
There is only only one real God and complete trust is the most difficult thing I can do. I am human and I want some control.
Let's take this to Paul. Was paul WARNED by the Holy Spirit that death was the results IF he went o Rome? I say NO! He was told what was going to happen, not given a choice. Sometime we know the end results but must obey the end results. such is the way of salvation.
Blessings
 

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Yes, I've asked God for wisdom. I became a Christian in 1980, at age 37, joining my wife's ultraconservative, fundamentalist group...one of those kind who are forever arguing over points of doctrine (is that euphemistic enough, Dee?) There erupted a squabble over some point about the Holy Spirit and I asked God to give me the wisdom to discern what was truly important. A few days later when I went for my annual physical, they said, "That growth looks kinda unusual, let's biopsy it just to be safe." It came back as malignant melanoma and they rushed me to Walter Reed to have surgery. My answer to what was important: my relationship with God.

Then, a year or so later, I realized that my "wrapped-up-pretty-tight"-ness wasn't compatible with Godly living, and I asked God for patience. A few months after that, my mother-in-law began to develop what was eventually diagnosed as Alzheimer's, and came to live with us, staying for the next 12 years.

So, don't ask God for what you aren't prepared to use in His service. ::) Mother Abagail stated it this way in "The Stand": "A God who will allow His own Son to be tortured and murdered on your behalf has the right to be pretty ruthless in what He wants you to endure for Him."...that's a rough paraphrase; I'm too lazy to go look it up and give an exact quote.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.


Within the context of what is being said to the audience I understand the point of wisdom to relate directly to the issue of Patience through suffering. Wisdom here appears to be the proper discernment of our circumstances in relation to what God allows into our lives.

In vs 2-4 the word translated as faith indicates our credence. It seems that the challenge is to ask that we have the wisdom to understand that all things are allowed in the life of the believer to bring God Glory by conforming the believer to the image of Christ.

I'm reminded of the songs of the hymn "how I've proved him o'er and o'er".
I can say that I have seen God prove himself o'er and o'er in my life.
I seem to be in need of this message in my life but am learning to rest in God, not there yet, but am learning. I believe that this is Wisdom. It was definitely given because I did not possess it or make it happen.

I would agree with Bill the last two posters observations.
 

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"So, don't ask God for what you aren't prepared to use in His service."
reliquary...I think that's very astute and profound. May I use that?
 

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I agree.
God gives the Faith to be saved. God gives.
When God gives the faith how can it be denied? If He gives the faith equally to Jew and Gentile how can the law be applied to this faith?
Blessings
 

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This isn't meant to be a criticism of anyone, as much as it is meant to be a help for me....we have three threads going on James and I'm having a hard time keeping up with them. Could we consolidate them into just this one?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I had planned to start a thread on each section of text as we work through it. That will give the chance to go back to specific areas of text without having 20 pages to scroll through.

This route was chosen due to the desire to follow an expository type approach of verse to verse "unrolling" of the text.

That was the plan but the option is there to try something different.

lc
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
9 Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, 10 and the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass3 he will pass away. 11 For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits.


I see here a perspective being taught not concerning the evils of riches. James is contrasting the brother of little material stuff and the one with much material stuff. The confidence of each, the exaltation of each is that God's wisdom is the Wisdom that is their security.

The "world system" teaches that power, wealth and might are those things that make us safe. The rich brother should avoid being tempted into this thought process since he realizes that God has given anything that he has and he has not "made himself". The poor brother already understands this or more easily understands this because he has only God to cling to so the temptation to trust wealth is not there.

This is the way that I read it. But a question arises. How does this text fit in to the preceding verses and the verses that follow which will bring us back to the idea of suffering?

lc
 

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I still perceive as the text being about salvation---alone.
Asking for wisdom--in relationship to salvation--is asking for faith for salvation.
Persevering is going to become a thorny issue for some in later verses.
A man wavering is going to hear several voices.
A man who is given the internal knowledge of salvation.
It is a sticky wicket here. We are reading a letter that was written to those whose life has been wrapped around the law and Abraham--and--we are trying to understand it in the light of a Gentile who does not have this intimacy or pre-disposed thinking.
Is not the suffering they experience, the suffering of being cast aside by their family--disenfanchised by their people?
Blessings
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Good point's WL. But are we not the same? We don't have "their" traditions but I see myself going back to self reliance so easily rather than resting in Christ.

While I agree with your point about salvation this particular statement is placed immediately after and before challenges to be steadfast under trial.
Also, the text is written to believers, those who have their assurance in Christ but whose faith, due to the circumstances, has been rattled.

I've been at that point with different circumstances. The point of despair that can be reached when God plunges someone into trial can only be faced with the "Wisdom" of knowing that God is in control of the circumstances and finding rest in spite of trial.

Isn't it amazing to start to put yourself in the place of these brothers and sisters?
We've never seen this in the Old U S of A.

lc
 

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Well, yes we have and do see it.
There are a number of cults who will disenfranchise those who come to Christ--I might even say all.
Some Christians even will do the same to members whoquestion church authority on doctrine and choose to go in another direction.
We have seen it on these threads, not long ago.
Blessings
 

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Paul says, "...all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution." Looking at all he went through, he certainly knew whereof he spoke.

This statement also pertains to us today. But the persecutions we as Americans face, in America, under the protection of the First Amendment, are not as great as those faced back then. They are not nearly as great as a missionary will face overseas, or as a Christian might face in a place where the religion is not compatible.

They are also often more subtle...you don't go to "Happy Hour", so you're not one of the "in-crowd." If you witness to someone at work, you may get a reputation as a kook. Satan knows your individual weakness and will put a specific temptation in your path. You may have to turn down a transfer and promotion, in order to continue to be an effective "servant" in your local church. But they will be there....
 
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