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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
"For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in him would not perish, but have eternal life."

So if folks won't trust him for their salvation but think their works have something to do with it, are they saved?
 

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Swampman said:
"For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in him would not perish, but have eternal life."

So if folks won't trust him for their salvation but think their works have something to do with it, are they saved?
nope. but after they are saved they just naturally want to do good works. besides our worship, my wife and I enjoy helping the less fortunate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So before they are born they enjoy doing good works?
 

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Swampy,
You wrote: Posted by: Swampman[/color]« on: Today at 01:47:49 PM »[/color]

  • [li]Insert Quote[/color][/li]
So before they are born they enjoy doing good works?[/color]Your statement is like asking which came first the Chicken or the Egg? Now we are twisting other's statements to try to make them look absurd, but only proving that you are "ridiculously unreasonable, unsound or incongruous" yourself.
This is not from the Bible, but from Webster's. Unfortunately the Bible does not cover everything in black and white terms, but leaves open the possibility of misinterpertation and misuse of the scriptures, hence the conflict over what verse or verses apply and who has the correct or incorrect intepertation.
"For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in him would not perish, but have eternal life."[/color]
So we trust in him before we are born or we are not saved is the question? How can an unborn child in it's mother's womb know to trust or not trust? This is what you are saying.[/color]
 

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I'm not responding to him again, because it really seems like he is doing the devils work.
 

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So before they are born they enjoy doing good works?
??? I don't know about you, but I'm a finite being. God, being infinite, knew me before he even knitted me together in my mother's womb (Jeremiah 1:5), but I had no conciousness prior to being created.

Not quite sure what you're driving at.

So if folks won't trust him for their salvation but think their works have something to do with it, are they saved?
No. The Bible makes it clear that one can be saved by attempting to keep the works of the law. Our attempts at righteousness fall short, and are filthy rags before a holy God (Isaiah 64:4-9). In his flesh, man is dead set against God and does not seek after him. We are selfish in nature and capable of no good thing (Romans 3:10-18).

Romans 3:20-25, NIV - "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."

There is no atonement for sins except through Jesus Christ, our perfect lamb.
 

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Yes, Bugeye.
The Devil's helpers misuse scripture to cause confusion and lead men astray. Classic examples Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones, Jim Baker, Ernest Angley, to only name a few of the higher profile ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The point being is that we don't become "saved" whatever that is. As mentioned we were predestined to election before the foundation of the world per the Bible.

We either have the faith of God or not. Our faith is of no use what so ever.
 

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Swampman said:
The point being is that we don't become "saved" whatever that is. As mentioned we were predestined to election before the foundation of the world per the Bible.

We either have the faith of God or not. Our faith is of no use what so ever.
If we are predestine, nothing matters. Everything else is pointless.........no need for churches, preachers, bibles, nothing. We can not change, because it has been decided for us. Just mutter through life and see what happens at the end???? Not me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Don't take it up with me, I'm just telling what the Bibles says. Religion was invented by men to control other men. It works great.
 

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I'm gonna put my 2 cents in here to tell anyone who cares to read it just how I look at "predestination".
Say for instance, a community wanted to start a little league sports program. So they advertise with flyers, radio and TV ads, word of mouth, newspapers, etc. All interested parties are to respond to the call by meeting at the park on such and such a day at a certain time.
They are gonna need carpool moms, grounds keepers, taylors, mechanics, coaches, players, everything. Even hog skinners for the footballs.
Now, who you reckon's gonna be predestined to have a position?
Will it be all the ones who ignore the call, or will it be the ones who respond?

The call has gone out.
Have you responded?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Just keep in mind that they respond because they are the elect. Responding doesn't make them elect.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
"because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

The very elect cannot be decieved. The non-elect will never believe that God's grace alone is all that's needed. They believe that action on their part is necessary. God decieves the non-elect and insures that they can't make it.
 

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SOme good points made. I have read this subforum through and I love it- just wanted to say that.
But if I can address the question: To be "saved", that is, with God in Eternity, it is necessary to:
1. Accept Christ as your Savior
2. keep His commands


It is false to assume we humans can do anything Holy compared to the Holiness of The Almighty- but it is also false to say we don't have to try. The Lord said in plain words that we have to love Hm AND keep His commands; there just isn't room for arguing those instructions.


However, to say we effect our own salvation is also nonsense: because our most committed efforts cannot truly measure up, we need Christ to save us. Even the most "holy" men and women among us cannot save themselves, only Jesus Christ can (and did) do that.


We cannot and do not need to worry about the 'which came first, chicken-or-egg" argument, or predestination or anything else except to do as Christ told us to do. The rest is taken care of by God.


Amen!


C-
 

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Swampman, have you ever heard the term "hyper-Calvinist"? There's much to discuss here regarding the sovereignty of God, and I'd love to engage deeper into the conversation with you. What you're saying is not completely incorrect, but you're missing some very key things which end up leaving you without Biblical context.

You are absolutely correct that God alone chooses who he will have mercy on, and that it has nothing to do with works or a person's goodness that they were saved (Romans 9). You are correct that those who believe are not even capable of doing so outside of the sovereign choosing of God (1 Corinthians 12:3).

However, to scratch the surface of what I'd like to open for discussion, you're painting a picture that holds faith to be irrelevant, and that man has no duty in salvation or the work of God. This is in direct opposition to the Gospel (see Romans 10 for starters), and ultimately just amounts to working yourself into a position that does little more than allow you to rationalize apathy.

I'd also have to question your reasoning for even bringing the subject up in the manner which you have. It seems you are looking to stir up quarrel and dissension. I'd love to continue the conversation about God's sovereignty, if that's truly your intention. But if that isn't your intent, hopefully you don't want to be the guy in 1 Timothy 6:3-5:

"If anyone [sup]E)'>[/sup]advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with [sup]F)'>[/sup]sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine [sup]G)'>[/sup]conforming to godliness, he is [sup]H)'>[/sup]conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in [sup]I)'>[/sup]controversial questions and [sup]J)'>[/sup]disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between [sup]K)'>[/sup]men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who [sup]L)'>[/sup]suppose that godliness is a means of gain."
 

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"Receiving the love of the truth" IS responding. God doesn't deceive anyone. He just lets them make their choices. But its their choice and He's given it to them.

As to deception, Eve was deceived. Its all part of human nature, which ain't got much to recomend it. "The heart is deceitful above all else." There is also the admonition to the man who thinks he can't be deceived to "take heed lest he fall".
There are plenty of people in and out of the "elect" status who are simply conscientious -to the point that they have no concept of ever being wrong; quite a state of deception.
And that's all part of the "putting to death the natural man". People aren't basically good, they are just basically conscientious, which sets them up for sin. Obviously, the Bride of Christ isn't quite ready for the Bridegroom. And the Bridegroom isn't coming back for a dismembered old hag. He's coming back for a bride without spot or blemish. That indicates a functional Body.
As to the context of the "elect", that is from the book of Revelation. We're not quite there yet; not as a world, and not as the Bride of Christ.
As to deception, Issac was deceived. Jacob was deceived. Obviously, Issac and Jacob are among the "elect", since Jesus quoted God as saying to Moses, I AM the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Not "was" their God.

Sometimes people are unable to perceive their deceptions. If they have been deceived lifelong, they might need to fast. RE: Mark 9.
The kind that doesn't go out without fasting is the kind that has been there lifelong.

Its like the guy with the screw in his navel. He went in for an Army physical and the Dr. says, "What you got that screw in your navel for?" The guy says, "I've always had it there." The Dr. says, "Naw, you haven't. There must be some reason its there. Have you never taken it out?" "Nope". "Well, I've got a screwdriver," the Dr. says and begins unscrewing it till it gets out about a foot. Then the guy's butt falls off.
The moral to the story is, if you have been under the wrong impression lifelong, its gonna seem like nothing's wrong.

Deception is a consequence of the wrong choice. The fact God allows a person to make choices and reap the consequences is the only way God "deceives" anyone.
Take the case where "God hardened Pharo's heart." God only "did" it by giving him choice after choice after choice, which was chance after chance to repent. The more he refused, the harder his heart became, which was what insured him of not making it. Typical of human nature.
 

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Alright, where does
Matthew 28:19-20Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[size=0.7em]19[/size]Go, therefore, and make disciples ofall nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember,I am with you always,to the end of the age."

come in?
 

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The "teaching" comes in as a safeguard against human nature. "Making desciples of all nations" refers to the grace offered to the gentiles, which was first offered to the Jews. Its an open option.
 

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1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to EVERY ONE that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto ALL them that obey him.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD through him might be saved.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if ANY MAN enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"

Joshua 24:15 "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then CHOOSE FOR YOURSELVES this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Timothy 2: 3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." NKJ

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH but that ALL should come to repentance." NKJ

ANYONE can be saved. No child of God was created with a pre-destination of ****.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Duke0313 said:
No child of God was created with a pre-destination of ****.
But the "children of the wicked one are."
 
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