knock out values
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I would imagine the 45/70 would rate higher.
Taylor started with the assumption that bigger bores and heavier bullets were superior, and developed his formula to demonstrate that.
In the real world, the TKO formula has little value.
Taylor started with the assumption that bigger bores and heavier bullets were superior, and developed his formula to demonstrate that.
In the real world, the TKO formula has little value.
I read an older hunting magazine article a few years back. I don't remember what the numbers were, but the .45/70 did have a higher number.
Zachary
Zachary
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John "Pondaro" Taylor was right on the money...
I've heard folks say that "Taylor K/O Values" don't apply... After extensive research...they have worked fine for me...!
I've heard folks say that "Taylor K/O Values" don't apply... After extensive research...they have worked fine for me...!
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214 Posts
Agree with posters. Irelevant.
Bullet in vitals, dead animal. Bullet out of vitals maybeso, eventually.
It's like the ft pounds vs pounds feet rig a ma row. Poppycock! Properly behaving bullets in vitals is what kills em, not energy. Energy is what makes the bullet move, what causes it to expand once it hits flesh and bone. Rhubarb I say, confounded rhubarb :roll:
Coug
Bullet in vitals, dead animal. Bullet out of vitals maybeso, eventually.
It's like the ft pounds vs pounds feet rig a ma row. Poppycock! Properly behaving bullets in vitals is what kills em, not energy. Energy is what makes the bullet move, what causes it to expand once it hits flesh and bone. Rhubarb I say, confounded rhubarb :roll:
Coug
The Taylor Knock Out values were for non -expanding bullets. People have tried to use them for years related to expanding bullets. The formulas may work for solids but most people have never used them so they can't speak for the accuracy of the numbers. On expanding bullets just put them where they suppost to go.
Interesting, I've never heard that minutes, missed brain thing before . But thats not saying it ain't so. I do know though, if it comes to critters that can bite back, I'll take a 45-70-450 over 30-06-200 any day, and more so if they're 50yds. and heading my way! O.
quote from "African Rifles and Cartridges" page 12
Author Taylor says,
"If you take a frontal head shot at an elephant with a .416 and miss the brain by a small amount, you will probably not knock him out. His hindquarters will give way and he will squat there like a huge hog for few moments, then, if you dont finish him off at once, he will heave to his feet again, slew around and clear off.
But if you had taken the same shot with the .470 and missed the brain by the same amount, that elephant would have been knocked entirely unconscious, and would have remained down for anything up to five minutes - yet the theoretical energies of the rifles are the same."
...................................................................................................
Note: The .470 has a knock out value of 72.95, not 5.
I have not read anywhere Taylor said it had to do with minutes of unconciousness in elephants. He may have but I have not read it.
It is just a comparitive value of knockout power of slow moving large caliber bullets that obviously have more killing power than what their energy values show.
Hud
Author Taylor says,
"If you take a frontal head shot at an elephant with a .416 and miss the brain by a small amount, you will probably not knock him out. His hindquarters will give way and he will squat there like a huge hog for few moments, then, if you dont finish him off at once, he will heave to his feet again, slew around and clear off.
But if you had taken the same shot with the .470 and missed the brain by the same amount, that elephant would have been knocked entirely unconscious, and would have remained down for anything up to five minutes - yet the theoretical energies of the rifles are the same."
...................................................................................................
Note: The .470 has a knock out value of 72.95, not 5.
I have not read anywhere Taylor said it had to do with minutes of unconciousness in elephants. He may have but I have not read it.
It is just a comparitive value of knockout power of slow moving large caliber bullets that obviously have more killing power than what their energy values show.
Hud
read this article about taylor KO and other formulas. Absolutly the best ive read. Gave me a new understanding of how what knockdown power really is. Actually after reading it i sold my 300 win mag and bought a 35 whelen.
http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/wounding.html
http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/wounding.html
Both with 300gr bullets.samson said::? Dose anyone know how the Taylors knock out values compar between the 45/70 and the 405 Win?
405Win 2450fps-4000fpe,KO:43,Quickload
45/70 2424fps-3915fpe,KO:47,Hodgdon
Taylor KO is a good reference as to how a certain round should perform on game.Solid or soft point,deer or bear,better KO is better,simple!
Taylor KO may have its benefits when hunting the big 5 but when it comes to hunting deer and the like. Deer are simply not elephants and a great number of center fire rifles will dispatch them swiftly and humanely regardless of there Taylor KO value. If your looking to flip deer over with a big bullet or catch them on fire with a miss from a fast moving bullet it just aint gonna happen.
Wake up and smell the gun powder
BS,the Taylor KO is based on velocity,energy,bullet diameter and momentum.It is another tool used to determine what you got for a round and should be used as such!You have a better KO,you have a more powerful round,simple!No one said anything about a death ray that blew deer over from high KO rating!
270win 150gr 2800fps-2615fpe Speer,KO:16
358Win 250gr 2425fps-3263fpe,Conley,KO:31
Does that mean the 270win won't kill deer as well as the 358win,NO.Because all that energy, momentum and diameter(= KO) is not needed for deer.Does it mean the 358Win will kill moose or grizzly better than the 270Win.You are damn right it does!Larger diameter,larger weight travelling at a slower velocity.Still has much more power than alighter bullet with smaller diameter travelling faster.FACT,thats what Taylor KO means,SIMPLE!!!!
Larger frontal section of the 358 produces a much more emphatic wallop on big game than a smaller diameter bullet traveling faster.The larger diameter spreads the initial impact over a larger area of the animal,therefore distributing the energy much more quickly(shock).It also of course produces a larger entrance hole and exit hole.These larger holes facilitate quicker blood loss,and quicker death,as well as better blood trail if animal is not killed instantly.Taylor KO brings all this to light by the rating he gives,and why is what i just explained,SIMPLE!!!!!!Enforcer I'm your huckleberry and this is just my game.
BS,the Taylor KO is based on velocity,energy,bullet diameter and momentum.It is another tool used to determine what you got for a round and should be used as such!You have a better KO,you have a more powerful round,simple!No one said anything about a death ray that blew deer over from high KO rating!
270win 150gr 2800fps-2615fpe Speer,KO:16
358Win 250gr 2425fps-3263fpe,Conley,KO:31
Does that mean the 270win won't kill deer as well as the 358win,NO.Because all that energy, momentum and diameter(= KO) is not needed for deer.Does it mean the 358Win will kill moose or grizzly better than the 270Win.You are damn right it does!Larger diameter,larger weight travelling at a slower velocity.Still has much more power than alighter bullet with smaller diameter travelling faster.FACT,thats what Taylor KO means,SIMPLE!!!!
Larger frontal section of the 358 produces a much more emphatic wallop on big game than a smaller diameter bullet traveling faster.The larger diameter spreads the initial impact over a larger area of the animal,therefore distributing the energy much more quickly(shock).It also of course produces a larger entrance hole and exit hole.These larger holes facilitate quicker blood loss,and quicker death,as well as better blood trail if animal is not killed instantly.Taylor KO brings all this to light by the rating he gives,and why is what i just explained,SIMPLE!!!!!!Enforcer I'm your huckleberry and this is just my game.
Enforcer, just stating my opinion. Nothing aimed at you personaly.
Your comparison between the 270 and 358 on deer is exactly the point I was trying to make. You will get no argument from me that the higher the Taylor KO value is, the more powerfull the round at the muzzle but does that make it a better killer for "deer and the like". NO. For example: I have a 416 Taylor that is a proven round on elephants and I'm sure has a lot better Taylor KO value than my puny 7-08. Will it dispatch deer noticebly better than a 7-08? I havn't had the chance to use the 416 on deer yet but based on my experience with other big bores and the track record of my 7-08 I doubt it. In fact if I expect to hunt were a longish shot may be in order I will feel much more comfortable with the 7-08, just as I would chose the 270 over the 358 if I expected long (300 yards) shots.
My above post was not intended to step on anyones toes but simply to point out that there are other variables to consider. A higher Taylor KO value at the muzzle does not nesecarily make a round better suited to all hunting applications. Just a guess because I have no idea how to calculate KO value but I would think that at some point (150 yards? the 300 grain bullet launched from a 405 would surpass the same weight bullet from the 45-70.
Your comparison between the 270 and 358 on deer is exactly the point I was trying to make. You will get no argument from me that the higher the Taylor KO value is, the more powerfull the round at the muzzle but does that make it a better killer for "deer and the like". NO. For example: I have a 416 Taylor that is a proven round on elephants and I'm sure has a lot better Taylor KO value than my puny 7-08. Will it dispatch deer noticebly better than a 7-08? I havn't had the chance to use the 416 on deer yet but based on my experience with other big bores and the track record of my 7-08 I doubt it. In fact if I expect to hunt were a longish shot may be in order I will feel much more comfortable with the 7-08, just as I would chose the 270 over the 358 if I expected long (300 yards) shots.
My above post was not intended to step on anyones toes but simply to point out that there are other variables to consider. A higher Taylor KO value at the muzzle does not nesecarily make a round better suited to all hunting applications. Just a guess because I have no idea how to calculate KO value but I would think that at some point (150 yards? the 300 grain bullet launched from a 405 would surpass the same weight bullet from the 45-70.
358Win-270Win
You would pick the 270Win over the 358Win for 300yds+ shots.That i think is a mistake,as I certainly would not. i send a 180gr Barnes XFB at 2802fps-3137fpe out of the 271/2in barrel of my Schultz & Larson in 358Win with 8X Leupold.I promise you that combo is good for 500yd+,as I shoot at that range(competion) often with that set-up.That will eat a 270Win up with its 150-160gr bullets at 2800fps,all day long.
But i see your point,as i hope I've made mine.Those other things you say are also important,besides KO.That is true,but the problem with your thought on that is this.Those others things,bullet weight,bullet diameter,energy,momentum,velocity are all the things that make up the Taylor KO.KEEP THAT IN MIND. I do know how to figure KO.
300Sav 150gr 2800fps-2610fpe,KO 18
375Win 250gr 2150fps-2565fpe,KO 28
303Brit 215gr 2235fps-2363fpe,KO 21
358Win 300gr 2250fps-3371fpe,KO34
See this is my game.Sorry if i get carried away sometimes.
You would pick the 270Win over the 358Win for 300yds+ shots.That i think is a mistake,as I certainly would not. i send a 180gr Barnes XFB at 2802fps-3137fpe out of the 271/2in barrel of my Schultz & Larson in 358Win with 8X Leupold.I promise you that combo is good for 500yd+,as I shoot at that range(competion) often with that set-up.That will eat a 270Win up with its 150-160gr bullets at 2800fps,all day long.
But i see your point,as i hope I've made mine.Those other things you say are also important,besides KO.That is true,but the problem with your thought on that is this.Those others things,bullet weight,bullet diameter,energy,momentum,velocity are all the things that make up the Taylor KO.KEEP THAT IN MIND. I do know how to figure KO.
300Sav 150gr 2800fps-2610fpe,KO 18
375Win 250gr 2150fps-2565fpe,KO 28
303Brit 215gr 2235fps-2363fpe,KO 21
358Win 300gr 2250fps-3371fpe,KO34
See this is my game.Sorry if i get carried away sometimes.
I find your 270 vs. 358 Win. comparison laughable. I do not doubt that you have a 27.5 inch barrel on your 358 but lets keep the comparisons apples to apples. At times I have trouble relaying my thoughts but the bottom line is I have never felt the need to concider the Taylor KO value of any caliber for my hunting needs and find that these values can be misleading. Things like B.C., bullet design and proper consruction can make a smaller cartrige outshine a larger caliber with poor bullet selection. (I see that you are shooting the X bullet so you must know the virtues of proper bullet design). The Taylor KO value is almost allways given at the muzzle (as you have in all of your examples) and that can also be misleading to someone selecting a cartrige bases on this principle since not many game animals walk up to the end of the barrel and the cartrige with the smaller value at the muzzle could have the better value at the range you intend to place your shot.
As you stated this is your game, hunting is mine. I have long ago gotten out of being hung up on numbers and found that matching the right bullet for the job in any reasonable caliber along with proper shot placement is THE key to a succesfull hunt.
As you stated this is your game, hunting is mine. I have long ago gotten out of being hung up on numbers and found that matching the right bullet for the job in any reasonable caliber along with proper shot placement is THE key to a succesfull hunt.
KO
All numbers I gave are from the muzzle.So then the velocity and energy are also misleading as they drop off as round travels down range just as KO does.
But i see your point.I use KO as just another tool.Like energy,velocity,bulet drop,bullet construction etc... It helps me to judge the round and its affect on the animal I'm hunting before hunt begins.It just another guide. Good Day
All numbers I gave are from the muzzle.So then the velocity and energy are also misleading as they drop off as round travels down range just as KO does.
But i see your point.I use KO as just another tool.Like energy,velocity,bulet drop,bullet construction etc... It helps me to judge the round and its affect on the animal I'm hunting before hunt begins.It just another guide. Good Day
KO
Use KO as a tool to help you judge a cartridges abilities on animals.Just like you would ,velocity,energy,ballistic coefficient,sectional density,momentum,bullet weight,bullet diameter.It takes in to account almost all of those things anyway.Those numbers that we all talk about having little value on the hunt.Will someday be the difference in you going home with nothing and the number cruncher going home with the GAME!!!!!!Be prepared as the guy 3 tree stands down will be and will benefit from your shortcomings! Enforcer
Use KO as a tool to help you judge a cartridges abilities on animals.Just like you would ,velocity,energy,ballistic coefficient,sectional density,momentum,bullet weight,bullet diameter.It takes in to account almost all of those things anyway.Those numbers that we all talk about having little value on the hunt.Will someday be the difference in you going home with nothing and the number cruncher going home with the GAME!!!!!!Be prepared as the guy 3 tree stands down will be and will benefit from your shortcomings! Enforcer
The Taylor Knock Out Value chart was, as stated before, designed for dangerous game. It has very little use when talking about other game. It makes for fun reading but gives false information concerning everyday hunting here in the real world. An example is the pellet rifle I used to take a turkey at 40 plus yards with. According to Taylor's chart it isn't good for anything larger than a charging cockroach or a mouse. I'm sorry but don't have to much faith in Taylor's chart. Lawdog
Fine example as Taylor KO would have helped you.As a pellet rifle is a terrible choice for shooting turkeys.And would have showed you the error of your ways.Every year they are coming out with hotter and stronger loads for the 12 gauge,12 gauge 3 1/2 in Mag and 10gauge for the tough and hard to kill turkey.And your out shooting them with a kids toy.Lawdog said:The Taylor Knock Out Value chart was, as stated before, designed for dangerous game. It has very little use when talking about other game. It makes for fun reading but gives false information concerning everyday hunting here in the real world. An example is the pellet rifle I used to take a turkey at 40 plus yards with. According to Taylor's chart it isn't good for anything larger than a charging cockroach or a mouse. I'm sorry but don't have to much faith in Taylor's chart. Lawdog
I have killed 14 turkeys in my life.I once shot a turkey twice at 40yds with a double barrel 10 gauge with #4 and it took off .Had I had my pellet rifle,problem solved right!
Enforcer
Enforcer
All depends on your pellet rifle. Mine does not qualify as a kids toy. A Beeman Crow Magnum IV in .20 caliber packs quite a punch. The turkey last fall was the first I've taken with my pellet rifle but it won't be the last. Of the 27 turkey's I've taken in my life I used mostly shotguns. But the totals boil down to this;
1 with a pellet rifle
5 with a bow and arrow
7 with a 12 ga. shotgun(only one of which was taken with a 3" magnum load, the rest were 2 3/4" mag. 4's)
14 with a 20 ga. using 2 3/4” mag. 4's
The only one that I ever came close to loosing was one I hit with an arrow. It flew about 160 yards before folding up in mid air. The one I took last fall with the pellet rifle was taken with a body shot and he didn't go 30 feet before dying. Maybe if you would use one of the pellet rifles designed and made for adults then you wouldn't have to be shooting turkeys twice.
All depends on your pellet rifle. Mine does not qualify as a kids toy. A Beeman Crow Magnum IV in .20 caliber packs quite a punch. The turkey last fall was the first I've taken with my pellet rifle but it won't be the last. Of the 27 turkey's I've taken in my life I used mostly shotguns. But the totals boil down to this;
1 with a pellet rifle
5 with a bow and arrow
7 with a 12 ga. shotgun(only one of which was taken with a 3" magnum load, the rest were 2 3/4" mag. 4's)
14 with a 20 ga. using 2 3/4” mag. 4's
The only one that I ever came close to loosing was one I hit with an arrow. It flew about 160 yards before folding up in mid air. The one I took last fall with the pellet rifle was taken with a body shot and he didn't go 30 feet before dying. Maybe if you would use one of the pellet rifles designed and made for adults then you wouldn't have to be shooting turkeys twice.
Your own quote shows the Taylor chart doesn't work. No the Taylor Knock Out Value chart has limited use and very little, if any, in the states. LawdogI once shot a turkey twice at 40yds with a double barrel 10 gauge with #4 and it took off .Had I had my pellet rifle,problem solved right!
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