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Discussion Starter #1
O.K. moderators, maybe you should delete this thread after you read it.
it's perfectly o.k. if you do as I will respect your judgement.
O.K. that was a stretch, but delete it if you think you should.
:)
The world is not a safe place these days.
Terrorists who claim to be religious followers of Islam murder people at random believing they will go to paradise for thier acts.
I was scoled on another forum for posting what I consider the absolute truth.
There are no innocent Muslims.
The majority of Muslim do not speak out against this senseles murder.
A few Muslim college professors, afew minor clerics have spoken out, but the body of Muslims have NOT.
The Brit Bombers were British citizens that were the average "joe next door" yet the straped on a backpack of C4 to commit mas murder.
I DO NOT ADVOCATE VIOLENCE AGAINST MUSLIMS.
My God does not teach violence against innocent people.
Some liberal bleeding hearts think that there is no difference between autrocities commited by the Christain world and the Muslim world.
I beg to differ.
No Christian group TODAY promotes murder with the promise of a reward in heaven.
Christians DID commit horrible crimes in the15th and 16th centuries, but the Chruch changed, albiet slowly and painfully but change it did and it changed by the MEMBERSHIP, the body of Christians DEMANDING reform!
This in now where evident in the Muslim world where it is ILLEGAL to convert from Islam to any other faith!
Where women that violate the rules are still beheaded.
The vast majority of Muslims are guilty of promoting murder by thier SILENCE.
Can you tell a "good" muslim from a "bad" Muslim?
Which one is wearing a backpack loaded with C4?
Show me ONE incident of any white male Christian fundo zealot that murdered whoever was standing around to make a political statment?
Sure some Christian zealots shot abortion doctors, but I never felt threatened by them.
Some blew up abortion clinics....when they were CLOSED and no one was around and I still never felt threatened by the zealots.
The Muslims target ANYONE at anytime.
My Christain faith teaches that if I murder people I will go to ****, not heaven.
I believe the Muslim faith must drag itself into the 21st century and understand that we live in a very small world today.
Or pay the price for supporting murder.
Just a thought or two to ruminate on.
 

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Which Muslims, the:

Shiite

Sunni

Sufi

Ahmadiyya

Qadiani

Lahore

Wahabi

Khariji

Druze

Alawi

Wahhabi

Kemalism

Yazidis

Ismailis

Zaidis

Fatimids

Nizardi

These are just the better known, and with in these there are yet sub sects, and there are also groups that might be, called cults, to further muddy the mix. The Bahi were also originally an outgrowth of Islam.

While Islam is monotheist, it certainly is not monolithic. While your Christian faith may teach you that if you murder you will go to ****, there have been and continue to be “Christians”, who apparently feel it is okay to murder, some people, in the name of “God”. I am happy you never felt threatened by a zealot, luckily your probably not one of the “mud people”.

No justification or defense for the barbarity carried out in the name of Islam, but Christianity has plenty of innocent blood on it’s hands. Amazing how the “Christian” nations of the allies in WWII never managed to bomb a Nazi concentration camp.

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon
 

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fe352v8 wrote "No justification or defense for the barbarity carried out in the name of Islam, but Christianity has plenty of innocent blood on it’s hands. Amazing how the “Christian” nations of the allies in WWII never managed to bomb a Nazi concentration camp."
I just had to reply to this. If, as you suggest, the allies HAD bombed a Nazi concentration camp what do you suppose the outcome would have been? Outrage from all Christian communities would be my guess. The allies would be bombing prisoners OF Nazi Germany. Are you sorry that more jews weren't killed? Are you supporting Muslim religious beliefs while those you claim to be your brothers (jews) are dying daily from attacks by muslims? I think you are more interested in using the "poor jew boy" crying towel than any true beliefs you have. Never have understood why anyone claiming to be other than Christian would spend so much time on a Christian site. Of course i don't understand why some "church historian" would be on here baiting you and all of us and not be called to task by the moderators or owner. Also can't understand why the owner would come on the site and accuse another's church of being the anti-Christ. Don't know why a member of RCC would come on and claim his church is the only "true" church. Don't know why some have such a need to "show" how much knowledge they have in God's Word by mentioning other preachers, teachers, Universities, etc. to "prove" one's own knowledge. Sad.
But the main thing I don't understand is why I am here. This is no place to try and spread the Word. There are just too many detractors and "experts". We are all clamouring to be heard and are spending our time putting others down instead of building up. No one comes here looking for truth, we all come to spread "truth". That doesn't work and neither does this site. That being said, and knowing I am one of the offenders, Graybeard please take my name off the rolls. You can point your avatar pistols at someone else, I'm gone.
 

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Bomb an aircraft plant no more planes, or a lot less planes. Bomb a death factory, whole lot less deaths. World Jewish Congress pleaded with"Bomber" Hariss, and LeMay to Bomb the camps, both said it would be a "distraction" from the war effort, and waste of resourses.

Even though we seldom agree I for one will miss your perspective, good luck.

may your God be with you and you with your God

jon
 

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Well gee GW you've cried foul several times and threatened to leave. Go, stay as you chose. Seems every time I express an opinion on the Bible Study Forum we lose another member. Am I the ONLY one is the entire world not entitled to an opinion? The day I can't state my own beliefs here will be the day it shuts down forever.

Just cuz I believe it don't make it so. Just because you do not don't make me wrong. We're all entitled to our opinions and as long as we state them as such and don't go trying to call them proven fact I could care less how much someone else's differs from mine. I just stated what I think, didn't state it as fact. Some day I'll be proven right or wrong. Until then I can only believe as I do.

I don't think anyone is baiting here unless you're fessing up to it which I don't think you are. I see it as folks asking valid questions based on their own valid opinions and beliefs. If you are uncomfortable with that then by all means don't participate. When I don't feel comfortable in a discussion I stay out of it generally or at most state an opinion and then get out.

Your departure will sure make some of the folks who've so often disagreed with you happy. Me I really don't care. You've not been run off and have threatened to go before. It's your call. Just be happy with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Whoa fellas.
This is a non Bible Study Religion topics forum
Forum, as in disuccsion, NOT fight.
Graybeard has made it clear that he restrains from posting due to his position on the the site,
Too bad some take his posts as LAW when he clearly states his position as another MEMBER submitting an opinion.
You gotta admire his restraint and tolerance for the good of the site.
Graybeards posts are NON threatening to anyone as long as everyone adheres to the rules of spiritual conduct.
Why would anyone have a problem with that?????????????????

FE:
Reference you list of Muslim "denominations". Muslims are united in thier hatred for infidels.
When they are not murdering US they are murdering EACH OTHER.
They murder each other WHILE they murder us.

Maybe I was not clear enough in my original post.
As a religion Christianty does NOT preach that committing suicide while in the act of committing mass murder will reward an actor with heaven.
Christianity teaches suicide is a sin. Murder is a sin.
For any reason. NOTE I SAID MURDER, not taking a life under justifyable circumstances.
Don't split hairs on that point, you see my message I think.
No one is excusing or ignoring Christianities jaded PAST.
Any high school student knows how bloodied Christianity is.
My POINT was that the Christian religion was FORCED into change by CHRISTIANS.
The body of Christians got educated, learned to read, asked questions, got sick of the rule of the church, it's misuse of authority, it's barbaric murderous ways and FORCED CHANGE.
This change itself was bloody.
Who could deny that?

My point is that the Muslims religion culturaly has changed very little over the centuries.
There are still many places in Islam where women that don't obey repressive rules are beheaded.
The Musims, as a group, have NOT changed.
The Muslim majority ,with exceptions, still support terrorism by SILENCE.
Nowhere is there a movement supported by the body of Muslims to foster change from murderous practices and preaching these murderous acts will reward the actor with heavenly bliss.

See my point?
Who said Chrisitanity was somehow "better" than Islam?

It's NOT A QUESTION of which faith is true, or better, or closer to some God, it's a matter of civlized practices.
Where is your arguemnt there?

Now how does one identify a "ggod" Muslim from a "bad" Muslim?
The Brit Bombers were the average Joe next door.
They murdered ANYONE in the area with no thought to who they were killing.
The bulk of the victims would be infidels and that was good enough.
Now as far as white male religious fundo zealots.
Your not seeing the point I was making at all.
When these sickos were attacking "mud" people they did not drive airplanes into tall buildings to kill a couple "mud" people did they?
NO fe, that does not make white male Christian fundo zealots "better" than Muslims, but it makes them different.
They didn't commit suicide as a means to mass murder.
If they targeted abortion doctors I, nor YOU was in danger.
If you're on a subway and a Muslim sits down close by with a backpack YOU ARE IN DANGER just because your there. So is every man woman and child.
See the diff?
Is it clear enough that I'm not supporting fundo's committing murder, that Christian zealots are not nice guys?
BUT they are not taught to commit suicide while committing mass murder.
Surely you see my point by now.
I'm not talking about what Christians did in the PAST in the 14th thru 17th centuries.
We did NOT bomb concentration camps, no matter why we didn't, the situation is we didn't.
You are bright enough to see the difference between global warfare such as WWII and terrorist war aren't you?
Even members of the KKK were selective in murder and did NOT murder each other en mass.
No excuses made for the KKK either.

Here is a challenge for you.
Show me ONE documented case where any while male christain zealot committed mass murder of non targeted group(s) while committing suicide.
We all know about the tiny group of zealot Christians that plotted to murder abortion doctors, but they didn't murder ALL doctors, or target anyone standing around.
Relax. There are only a couple hundred thousand Muslim zealots willing to blow themselves and thee and me into eternity. :eek: :shock:
 

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Jim Jones, David Koresh, Salem witch trials, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the church sending blankets contaminated with small pox to Native American tribes, death by drowning to the perpetrators of the Anabaptist and Protestant Reformations.

People without power grasp at desparate means to gain control and are easily duped by evil men masquarading as men of God. It has happened in the Christian Church over and over again and didn't stop until Christianity considered itself "safe". The Islamic faith certainly doesn't consider itself safe, it perceives the entire world as being out to destroy it. Whether or not that is true is immaterial--what they believe is that they are in danger and need to protect themselves from the influence of the Infidels at any cost. Do I condone what they do? Absolutely not. But I do not believe that commision of such atrocities is any more a fundamental tenet of their faith than it was of the Christian faith when we were at their stage and when our predecessors were committing crimes in the name of God.

Did you know it is a violation of Koran to not offer sanctuary, safe passage and sustenance to a foreigner in your land? That and other teachings are simply down played and the violence and struggle are accentuated in an effort to galvinize their people into a sense of protecting themselves at any price. What would the Christian church be like if we focused on Christ's teaching that he "did not come to bring peace but a sword" or that you must "hate your father and mother" to be a follower of His. These are his teachings. We now look at them in context for a more societally appropriate interpretation but if we felt that we faced extermination of our beliefs and our way of life, how long do you think it would be until those passages and others were being held up as a call to arms against anyone nonChristian.

By way of disclaimer, I have not read the Koran. What little knowledge I have of its teachings is from conversations with an Islamic Imam who is a fellow chaplain alongside me at the hospital. And I might add also that he has repeatedly and vehemently spoken out publicly against such acts as being contrary to the teachings of Koran and the main stream Islamic culture.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Chappy said: "Jim Jones, David Koresh, Salem witch trials, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the church sending blankets contaminated with small pox to Native American tribes, death by drowning to the perpetrators of the Anabaptist and Protestant Reformations."

My reply: Gimme a break. I issued a challenge.
That challenge was to show me one documented case where any white male christian individual or group(s) indiscriminately murdered people while committing suicide.
Jones and Koresh hardly qualify, and they make up an extremely small portion of the christian community.
Muslim terrorist extremests make up 10 to 15% of the Muslim population of about 1.7 BILLION.
Do the math. That is a LOT of suicide murderers. Kinda gives you a warm, glowing, safe, homey, feeling hey?
As far as ytour Muslim preacher friend speaking out publically against murder.
Sorry. That don't carry much weight either.
One insignificant cleric calling for and end to murdering innocents isn't a drop in the ocean.

Yeah. They will gvie sanctuary to strangers if they only ask for it.
Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who you trying to kid?
Tell that sanctuary story to the thousands of Russian prisoners of war during the Afgan conflict.
They were captured, stripped of every stich, and shot ON THE SPOT!
TO A MAN!
Nice you have a Muslim cleric to learn from though.
 

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Golly gee you are right white christian males are too smart to indiscriminately commit murder while committing suicide. Which is without doubt proof of the superiority of the Christian faith and the white male.

Or it could be that white Christian males lack the convictions of their faith.

Or it could be a ridiculous example of framing a debate.

You should really request a tuition refund, you were ripped off.

Knowledge maybe the lamp in the darkness, but you have to still light the wick or flip the switch, or else it just stays dark.

may your God be with you and you with your God

jon
 

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Discussion Starter #10
O.K. fellas.
This is a volitile topic and emotions run hot easily.
Let me be the 1st to appologize for any sour attitude on my part.
And I DO apologize.
Chappy I apologize to you for my snotty post also.
I have a hard time over this suicide/murder thing with so many innocents dying, even scores of muslim children. Sickening.
Fe: I fail to understand your comments:

"Golly gee you are right white christian males are too smart to indiscriminately commit murder while committing suicide. Which is without doubt proof of the superiority of the Christian faith and the white male. "
I cannot comprehend , nor even see any logic in that statement.
"Too smart"????????/
"Superiority of the Christian faith and the white male"?
I'm sure I misled you completely with the "white male christian part".
What I am refering too is white male bigot zealots. Even they do not commit indiscriminate murder/suicide.
I consider white male christian zealots to be racist bigots to be sure.
It's no consolation at all, but they do not commit mass murder/suicide.
No one said anything about any religion being superior to any other.
However the Chrsitian faith teaches it is wrong to commit murder OR suicide and there is not reward in it.

"Or it could be that white Christian males lack the convictions of their faith."

Well that statement also contains no logic or sense.
The fact is that Christians, even warped chrisitans, are NOT taught to commit murder/suicide and by virtue of those FACTS the DO HAVE convictions of thier faith.

Surely you are not admiring Muslim suicide bombers for conviction of thier faith?
That sir, is Unconscionable.
I know you don't mean that.

I suggest everyone including me needs to think a bit better before we post.
I don't mind a humble apology to the group or individuals when I'm clearly wrong in my attitude, but if I'd think it thru a little better perhaps I would not need to make an apology in the 1st place.
fe: your remarks are troubling and definately out of your normal character.
d\Did you get the impression that my "white male christian" remarks were meant to show superiority of race or religion?
That is NOT what I meant at all.
 

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keep it simple

Any religion that denies human dignity to non adherents is a bad religion Currently (and that's all that is relevant to the here and now), there is one major religion that sanctions/tolerates-with-silence this tenet. From my point of view this is evil pure and simple. It's just that simple.
s.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Re: keep it simple

stuffit said:
Any religion that denies human dignity to non adherents is a bad religion Currently (and that's all that is relevant to the here and now), there is one major religion that sanctions/tolerates-with-silence this tenet. From my point of view this is evil pure and simple. It's just that simple.
s.
That was a strong, simplified statement.
That being said it was also true and I quite simply AGREE!.And the "here and now" is the crux of the issue isn't it?
One could condemn anything and everything based on past history couldn't one?
We could comnemn all germans because they were once a Nazi state, what about the Italians, how about the ancient Romans, autrocities committed by Native Americans against other Native Americans, and the list could go on for several lifetimes.
But things changed, mostly for the betterment of mankind, in many ways.
Humankind in most of the world enjoys more civil rights and liberties protected by LAW than at any time in history.
IF we look at the past, even 60 years ago we could condemn a large part of society.
What is relevent is the "here and now".
The current Muslim attitude will throw our world into complete chaos and total warfare if the world is not very, very, careful in handling this crisis.
The here and now is exactly what I'm talking about.
Bringing up crackpots like Jim Jones, and David Koresh do not adress the issue or the questions I asked.
No one in Jonesville blew up a subway or drove airplanes into the WTC.
Koresh and company sequestered themselves in a remote loaction to stay away from the rest of the world.
Right wrong or indifferent, those crackpots add nothing to the discussion of global mass murder in the name of some god.
 

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You may find it of interest that the Koran views Jesus as a prophet; they do however deny his divinity, much as many deists do. Also of interest is the fact that the Koran arose shortly after the canonization of the Christian Bible. It is the position of Islam that the Canonized Bible is a twisting of the word of God, and that the Koran, is the embodiment of the “true” word, as given to Mohammed, in a revelation.

I think Chaplain Robert, is correct in his statement: “People without power grasp at desparate means to gain control and are easily duped by evil men masquarading as men of God. It has happened in the Christian Church over and over again and didn't stop until Christianity considered itself "safe". The Islamic faith certainly doesn't consider itself safe, it perceives the entire world as being out to destroy it. Whether or not that is true is immaterial--what they believe is that they are in danger and need to protect themselves from the influence of the Infidels at any cost. Do I condone what they do? Absolutely not. But I do not believe that commision of such atrocities is any more a fundamental tenet of their faith than it was of the Christian faith when we were at their stage and when our predecessors were committing crimes in the name of God”.

As such a suicide bomber is a low-tech cruise missile, or stealth bomber. From the perspective of their society, our stealth bombers or cruise missiles are also terrorists.

While I do not condone their actions, I can understand them. The rationalizations for their actions have at least been more consistent than ours. While we may claim to have been attacked first, the history of the Middle East seems to indicate a pattern of aggressive behavior and exploitation initiated by the west. As the US has assumed the role of the dominant western power, we are a natural target. Our less than even handed, inconsistent and to be charitable, disingenuous policies towards the Arab or Islamic world has done little to mitigate or alleviate tensions nor do they offer any reassurance that our motives are “pure and noble” or our intentions “good”.

Initial drafts of the constitution now being written in Iraq seem to indicate that what is emerging is going to be an “Islamic Republic”. Our current policies give Arabs or Muslims little reason to believe that our policies are not the same as they have been in the past, until that perception changes, I am afraid that we will find ourselves the target of terrorist attacks for quite some time.

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon
 

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Discussion Starter #15
fe:
You bring up some very interesting points.
You understand the Muslim mind???????
Wow! You're good! You actaully understand strapping on 10 pounds of C4 and blowing your self and innocent people into a red mist?
Wow!
If I ever whack out and murder a bunch of innocent people I want YOU on the jury. :) :) :)

fe: You are in no position to speak for the Muslim world.
You don't have the lifestyle, back ground, education, experience, to speak for the Mulsim world.
I'd venture to say most people know that Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet.
Most people know that Christians and Muslims trace thier religious AND cultural roots right back to Abraham.
Both religions have the very same Abraham.
I have a hard time believing that an entire religious world is paranoid to the point that they think the rest of the world is out to "get 'em".
Obviously your powers of perception are much greater than mine.
So you can get into the mind of a terrorist and understand his motives?
Interesting. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
 

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Why do you find it so difficult to believe that, “entire religious world is paranoid to the point that they think the rest of the world is out to "get 'em".”?

There are Christians in this country that feel the government, (dependent upon the political party in power) and or the courts, are taking away their right to worship and practice their religion. Some have even pointed to The Branch Davidians as an example of government suppression of religious freedom

Christian and some political leaders opine endlessly that there is a cultural war being fought in this country, this in a country where the majority of people claim to be a Christian, of one sort or another.

So I do not find it to far fetched to think that after being under colonial rule for a few hundred years, and then after being granted independence, to be subject to continued interference and exploitation by your former colonial masters and their allies that an Arab might perceive the deployment of troops as but a replay of past history.

I would not presume to speak for the Arab world, just for myself. I merely stated that I am capable of understanding the perspective in which they view the situation. Until the western allies annexed Arab lands to form the modern state of Israel there had been few if any Arab terrorists. Why did we create, this Jewish homeland on Arab territory, when there were more Jews living in Europe and the United States? Christianity may be grafted on to the vine of Judaism, but apparently no one wanted the root stock growing in their Christian country, so what the heck, they are just Muslims, besides its’ in the Bible, we must be doing “Gods” work so it is right. Jews and Arabs had been coexisting relatively peacefully for many years before the creation of modern Israel.

I believe in the maxim, “Know thy enemy”, meaning try to understand why they do what they do, which implies trying to think like them, there is a big difference between empathy and sympathy. I believe that our policies are so limited by ideological constraints that our leadership is unable to do this and as such they do not understand our enemies and the price for defeating them will be much higher than would other wise have been necessary.

Therefore I think it prudent to try and understand the factors that motivate someone “strapping on 10 pounds of C4 and blowing your self [themselves] and innocent people into a red mist”; instead of just shallowly or simplistically attributing the cause to a “Godless religion” or that they are “Satan’s disciples.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
 

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Discussion Starter #17
FE:
Come on now. There is a huge difference betwen "some" members of a religious faith feeling like there are elements working against them and an entire body feeling paranoid that they will be erased from the world somehow..
You said:
"Some have even pointed to The Branch Davidians as an example of government suppression of religious freedom."

The key word is "some".
You know perfectly well that in any organization there will be 'some' on the fringe.
Always has been, always will be.
Another key element being missed here, by you, is that none of the alleged Branch Dividian supporters drove an airplane into a tall building or detonated themselve in a subway!

You said:
"Christian and some political leaders opine endlessly that there is a cultural war being fought in this country, this in a country where the majority of people claim to be a Christian, of one sort or another."

Who cares about groups and or politians expressing OPINIONS.
Haven't you noticed that in THIS country, in THIS culture we Americans whine, gripe and bitch about MANY things and when us Americans get fed up we generally GO TO THE POLLS AND FREAKING VOTE!
As a generall rule we don't strap on a backpack of C4 and detonate ourselves and murder and maim whoever is in the area.

Don't you understand that it is the WAY these people react to thier perceived visions for themselves is what most people take issue with.
It's ACTIONS, not differences of opinions for crying out loud.


:twisted: Mass murder is a very primative way to act out perceptions don'cah' think?
:twisted:
 

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Jeager

The premise of your first post in this thread was

“what I consider the absolute truth.There are no innocent Muslims.”

(because)

”The majority of Muslim do not speak out against this senseles murder.
A few Muslim college professors, afew minor clerics have spoken out, but the body of Muslims have NOT.”

If I accept your proposition at face value; then a logical extension is that when an injustice is committed by a member of a religious group and a majority of that religions adherents do not speak out against the injustice then the adherents of the religion are as guilty as those who have directly committed the injustice.

Think of the possibilities of extrapolating this proposition; when an injustice is committed by a member of a community and the majority of the community does not condemn it the community is as guilty as the individual who directly committed the injustice. There is no end to the guilt which can be imposed.

Both President Bush and Prime Minister Blair, have in essence said that by participating in the elections, held in Afghanistan and Iraq the majority, were speaking out against terrorism and rejecting Islamic extremism, and at great personal risk to themselves. While their assessment may be questionable, support for the terrorists could have been easily demonstrated by not voting, and would have involved far less risk.

Thus I think one must look simply beyond Islam as the root of terrorism, and seriously consider what other factors are the causes, or conceded that these acts are being committed by a small minority of Muslims outside of the Islamic mainstream.

As an aside I think it would be wonderful if all religions took a step closer to the 21 century, but I suppose it is difficult to escape the superstitions of our past.

Is pre-emptive war a form of mass murder, when the reasons given are proven false?

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon
 

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Discussion Starter #20
We are not going to agree here and that's fine.
I will only add that if a member of a society commits a crime and the other members of the society do not speak out then YES they are just as guilty due to thier tolerance.
In many societies prostitution is accpeted and tolerated so the "crime" (if that is a crime?) is accpeted as part of daily life.
The same can be said of gambling and illegal drug use.
There are societies that tolerate such activities and accept them.
I venture to guess that if a Christian wrapped himself in C4 and blew up a subway in the name of Jesus, the vast majority of Christian leaders would immediately condemn such conduct.
No matter what the politics involved there would be a voice codemning such actions.
The Pope(s) have been a voice for the Christian world for centuries(right or wrong).

In the Muslim world assassination is an accepted means of grabbing political power.
Saddam came to power exactly that way. It's a traditional and cultural way of life and has been for thousands of years.
The root word for assassin is arabic.
I do agree on one point.
I too wish all religions would take a large step closer to the 21st century.
See my next thread if you'd like.
I'd appreciate your comments.
(let's keep it friendly please) :)
 
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