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Discussion Starter #1
I shoot a T/C Stainless Steel Black Diamond In-Line (.50 cal) and use pyrodex pellets along with sabots.

The only thing that I use to clean the gun is a plastic bucket of HOT soapy water, combined with an after-bath coating of "Rem Oil".

What's up with the growing multitude of cleaning products for muzzleloaders?

Do we really need all this stuff?
 

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:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D fredj. Ya hit that one fer sure my friend. :-D :-D :-D :-D king
 

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Cleaning Simplified

Now that's a simple approach to cleaning, compared to another post I've read. And that's all I do. Except I use boiling water, poured out of a Tea Kettle without any soap. Then I use either TC Bore Butter or Butch's Bore Shine on the inside and outside.
Everyone seems to talk about Rem Oil, so I may pick some up and try it.

- skunkie
 

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Yup - hot soapy water is all you need. Rem Oil will work as well as any gun oil. One of my buds uses diesel in there! He's not married so he can stink up the place as he pleases...
 

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Since you're shooting the Pyrodrek and it contains a significant amount
of Pechlorate (the same stuff that's in corrosive primers) which is highly hygroscopic and only partially water soluable, I'd recommend using a solvent capable of neutralizing the Perchlorate, Pyrodrek is considerably more corrosive than even the worst BP, the soap and water likely isn't going to completely cut the perchlorate, you'll have to do your own research as I stopped shooting the crap many years ago, when I did I
used the mil. surplus corrosive primer solvent that comes in small metal cans and smells horrible. Hot water causes after rusting, and detergent residue is often as alkaline as BP residue, use cold water, or glass cleaner
cider vinegar etc and wet patch to clean up after BP, you don't need a bucket, you don't need to submerge your barrel.
fredj
 

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An old BP shooter told me to use windshield washer fluid. Works great for .75 / gal and no rust.
 

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kenmc77777 said:
fredJ,
Will the 777 have the same stuff, Pechlorate?
YES. Ken, I'm afraid it does.
 

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CleanShot and its other form are hygroscopic (absorb moisture from the air) just like Pyrodex and Triple 7 so I would assume thay do.

Black Powders are able to recover after absorbing moisture or getting wet. Not so with the b/p substitutes. Once they first absorb moisture, they begin to degrade. Got to keep 'em capped tightly and use them up ASAP.
 

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SHELF LIFE

:roll: WHAT IS THE NORMAL SHELF LIFE OF PYRODEX.MINE STORED IN GUN SAFE WITH DEHUMIDIFIER.ONE GUN MANUFACTURER TOLD ME REPLACE EACH SEASON FOR BEST RESULTS.I'VED KEPT SEVERAL YEARS WITHOUT PROBLEMS.
 

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Re: SHELF LIFE

ARCHERPRF said:
:roll: WHAT IS THE NORMAL SHELF LIFE OF PYRODEX.MINE STORED IN GUN SAFE WITH DEHUMIDIFIER.ONE GUN MANUFACTURER TOLD ME REPLACE EACH SEASON FOR BEST RESULTS.I'VED KEPT SEVERAL YEARS WITHOUT PROBLEMS.
Should be good for quite a number of years as long as you keep it capped. I don't think you'll get Hodgden to say what Shelf Life is, but it can't hurt to ask! The only way to really tell is to compare similar new/old powders and loads in your gun. I recall someone on the old GB complaining bitterly about pyrodex being no-good because it had gone down hill (lost somemof its punch) after a couple years storage. As you've discovered, treat it right and it will keep.
 

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archerprf-The problem with Perchlorates hygroscopic nature is once absorbed the moisture is held and the degradation begins if you live
in an arid environment it may last for years, what I found was that if
the Pyrodrek had been opened here in S. Wisconsin where it's often
pretty humid I found my velocities would start becoming somewhat erratic
a few months later, a year or better would have the stuff gone completely south. I think if the manufacturer was on the level they'd acknowledge
it's actual properties, let the shooter know they should be using a
solvent capable of breaking down the Perchlorate, and they'd sell it in
smaller containers small enough that it would be easily shot off quickly.
Pyrodex left sealed probably has a very long shelf life inlike many of the
other citrus based faux BP's which will go south in less than a year even in the sealed container, IMHO the faux BP's are all very expensive crap
for less money than any of that garbage you can buy Swiss BP which
is the finest BP, even the most modest BP has an unlimited shelf life
and will breathe i.e. give up moisture it's absorbed when left in a dry place with the cap off.
fredj
 

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So if I understand what I read above correctly, 777 will ruin your barrel because of perchlorate unless you use a solvent. Yet Hodgen's claim to fame with it is you only need to use water. I think we need to take a poll of how many people have ruined barrels, because I have not heard of any yet. I am not trying to be argumentative, but if this is true nobody would being buying their product because it would be ruining barrels and from what I have read in this forum everyone that uses 777 loves it because of the water clean up.
 

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I love black powder for the same reason hot water clean up. And, it smells so good
 

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Interesting pictures. They show that if you do not clean your muzzleloader right away what can happen. I do not disagree with that. I clean mine the day I shoot it and never put it off. What I am not sure I agree with is the statements that those results will happen even after cleaning unless using a solvent.
 

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Having done poorly in chemistry class, I don't know about the corrosive aspects of Pyrodex. I do, however, suspect that it absorbs and retains moisture more readily than BP. I'm guessing it's part of the problem I had when I used it years ago - hangfires. It's true that BP can be dried and used. If Fredj is right, it may also be why, after twenty plus years, I have no rust in the bores of my guns - I always use BP which cleans up easily and completely with soap and water (or, with many other products).
 

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Bullseye said:
So if I understand what I read above correctly, 777 will ruin your barrel because of perchlorate unless you use a solvent. Yet Hodgen's claim to fame with it is you only need to use water. I think we need to take a poll of how many people have ruined barrels, because I have not heard of any yet. I am not trying to be argumentative, but if this is true nobody would being buying their product because it would be ruining barrels and from what I have read in this forum everyone that uses 777 loves it because of the water clean up.
Bullseye-First of all 777 is allegedly an improved product that addresses
the deficiencies of Pyrodex that Hodgdon never acknowleged in the first place, hmmm ? However I believe they use a good bit less Perchlorate
than Pyrodrek. It's also quite interesting that 777's popularity is based on the simple water clean up when real Black powder readily cleans up with
water and always has, sounds like with 777 the media is the message
they create or enhance the belief in common BP myths then capitalize on it, sounds rather disingenuous to me, and then all the pidgeons that are getting ripped off then go forth parrot the pitch.
As far as the barrel damage there have been any number of barrels damaged and or completely destroyed by using Pyrodex and the Bore butter bore conditioning technique, there have also been plenty of barrels ruined by casual ML shooter's that believe that Pyrodex is somehaow non or less corrosive because it's a modern BP substitute, I encountered this while teaching hunters safety when several of the Dad's took exception to my assertion that Pyrodex is in fact considerably more corrosive than real black powder
a number of them got really bent out of shape as some of them have some very healthy ego's and if they'd been using it, this couldn't possibly be true as they literally in some cases can't be wrong. which lead me to do a test where we took a degreased slab of boiler plate and burned 70 gr. piles of GOEX (Moosic production) Pyrodex RS, Elephant (late 97 lot) and even Bullseye as a control group we put the plate behind one of the guys barn where it was sheltered from the rain. after 3 weeks we found the Pyrodex area had some serious pit corrosion under the surface rust, the GOEX had about half as much surface rust and almost imperceptable pitting and the Elephant had a very light rust with no pitting evident and the bullseye spot actually had a little rust starting of course other area's of the plate were starting to develop some rust as well S. Wisconsin is fairly humid. Some of the Pyrodex adherents were still not moved so I borrowed a bore scope from a barrel maker friend and we scrubbed up thier barrels and examined them and several were a total mess with very pronounced deep pitting in the chamber and several inches beyond and the remainder of the bore pitted enough that they'd be pretty much beyond rehabilitation, often casual shooters that use Pyrodex wouldn't even be aware of the damage to their barrels untill they were absolute black holes as the stuff is loaded with graphite which allows you to shoot without wiping because the fouling acts like a lubricant and attains an equillibria of fouling after 5 or 6 shots, and many of these people have never even taken a close look down their bores, and I'd imagine virtually none of them have ever given thier bores an examination with a bore scope.
if you don't find me credible sign on to the BP_L listserver and ask about Pyrodex and bore butter ruined barrels etc and see what kind of responses you get and these people are a group of leading competition shooters, advanced rifle cranks, barrel makers, and other industry figures
or take a trip to Friendship or any major regional national or regional
BP shoot either ML or BPCR and see how many cans of Pyrodex or any of the rest of that expensive garbage are on the loading benches of any of the competitiors, and believe me any numer of those folks would be using it if it provided any discernable advantage or in some cases even if it was just the rough equivalent of Black Powder regardless of cost.
I don't actually care if some of you are getting boned big time or even if you ruin your barrels, in certain cases I find it highly ammusing, but I do like to warn others particularly the newbies as I'd like them to become serious BP enthusiasts so our sport continues long into the future and getting started out right and avoiding some of the really expensive mistakes that many of us have made along the way. In my case I wasted a small fortune trying every new scam faux BP that came on the market, and ruined 2 nice barrels, the only benefit was to my lawn which in the case of Pyrodex has some very lush growth where I sprinkled it.
And the more people that buy the substitute crap the sooner the anti's will be able to ban or highly restrict real Black Powder which is a truly amazing propellant.
fredj
 

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:D :D :-D :-D I hafta agree with fredj on what he is saying. In the first plae a lot of the guys that shoot the new fangled toys would not know a ruined bbl if it jumped up and hit em inna face. I know cause I see probably about 10 to 12 a year. It generally comes under the heading of " howcome the bore feels funny when i load it,or I cant hit anything with it " . All of these knowledgable gun people were shooting pyrodex,cause they dont have to clean the bbl after it use. Im kinda poking fun at the knowledgable part,of that comment. The sad part of it was each and everyone of them was told by me and a lot of other bp shooters to clean the gun after using it,like right after,not the neixt day or week. Now humans being the critter that they are,are kinda lazy sometimes,and when someone tells em that they dont have to clean,and the guy that told ya to clean em is a dummy,they aint gunna clean the rifle/shotgun/bpcr,cause they herd what they wanted to hear. Less work involved in shooting. At the present time there is a nice .54 cal. hawkens from tc that is on the mantle over the fireplace,it has been shot with pyrodex,and not cleaned for about 8 days here in southwest lower mi. This occured about 9 years ago when a knowledgable friend borrowed it to hunt with. He did not listen to me,he listened to his cousin. Now his cousin shoots bp or pyrodex a huge amount,maybe six shots a year. He listened to his cousin,I have a ruined rifle. He purchased me a new rifle cause he then figured that his cousin might be wrong on his idea of not cleaning. That rifle is not used anymore for shooting. But when someone says that how good Pyrodex is,and ya dont hafta clean em or watch yer bbl,i just hand it to em to look at. ....king
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The Joy of Pellets

I think the reason I use Pyrodex is because it comes in pellet form.
Being an in-line muzzleloader deer hunter, I am always happy if I can lighten the amount of junk I have to carry while hunting, so its real convenient to pack one reusable plastic tube of pyrodex pellets.
Plus, they load fast! Plink. Plink. (Plink.) Done.
 
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