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I just got off of the phone with technicians at both Hornady and Nosler. Guess what? They are both coming out with new bonded bullets! :grin:

I have heard something about this for a few weeks now, but something happened today that caused me to actually call Hornady and Nosler to find out first hand. Specifically, we have a forum called (if I remember correctly) Handloading for Rifles and Handguns, of which Ironknees is the moderator. In any event, one of the topics involved Barnes X bullets. As many of you know, I am a very big fan of the Barnes X for use on hogs, but I feel that it is a little too strong for the average whitetail when shot through the lungs because it generally does not expand as fast as your average soft-points. Now, I don't really want to get into whether Barnes X are the perfect bullet. I can say, however, that if a hunter is using a non-magnum cartridge, or if shots are not very close (where most conventional bullets can blow-up) there really is no reason to use super-duper premium bullets like the Barnes X. As such, for cartridges like the .260, .270, 7mm-08, .308, 25-06, and the like, I prefer to use traditional-type soft-points ON WHITETAIL.

In these loads, I really like the Hornady Interlocks, but have found that even they can come apart and thus loose a lot of their weight.

I always thought that if someone would build a bullet like a Nosler Ballistic Tip, yet have it bonded, then it would be almost perfect for whitetails, especially in the above mentioned cartridges. Well, as you would know it, Remington (or actually Swift) came out with the Scirocco (or Scrrioco - I don't recall the correct spelling.)

Now, Hornady and Nosler have come out with their own "versions" of the Scirocco.

Hornady's bullet is essentially it's SST except that it is bonded and has a thicker jacket. Hornady says that it will come out with this bullet sometime in February or March.

Nosler's bullet is called "ACCUBOND" and it is essentially their Famous Ballistic Tip that is bonded. Nosler says that the weight retention of the Accubond is around 70%, which is almost identical to the Scirocco and more than the partition.

So it seems that the Bonded SST and Accubond, and Scirocco, are very similar.

I look forward to using these bullets because they should be very accurate, have a higher weight retention, and have expansion very close to 2x. (Once the front section of partitions break off, you are essentially left with only original caliber expansion - meaning 0x expansion).

I am also certain that these bullets will cost more. How much more I don't know, but I'm sure more nonetheless.

Do you still need this kind of a bullet in the above mentioned cartridges on whitetails? Maybe not, but I like the added security of having the bullet hold-up better.

What do you guys think? Do you think that you would use these types of bullets?

Zachary
 

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Not something I would use on whitetails at normal (under 250 yards for me) ranges. I follow and agree with your assessment on bullet performance. I would rather have a bullet with fast expansion, even at the risk of break-up, before I would want one that blows through without expending most of its energy. Both kill just as dead, but the former seldom lets the deer go anywhere with my .270. And on slower calibers like my 6.5 x 55, I need the quick expansion because the whole expansion process is somewhat slower and the risk of fragmentation is reduced anyway. It does little good if your bullet reaches max diameter at about the exit hole.

On the breakup of the core-lokt (partitioned) bullets, I have used them on at least a dozen whitetails with a .308 and a .270. They are great when I want to ensure that I will have a blood trail to follow, but they don't expand quickly enough to transfer most of their energy into the game. But I have never had a problem with the core-lokt bullet breaking up on me in whitetails. On the contrary, they probably hold together too well.

But where I see the Scirocco (spelled correctly according to my sources) and (I assume) the new bullets in question shine is in the way they retain velocity downrange. I would definitely use this bullet if I was anticipating any of my shots to be 200 yards or better on deer sized game and up. The retained energy and better trajectory helps the standard calibers (like the .30-06 and the .270) perform very close to the lighter magnums at medium and long range. On a muley or elk hunt out West, they would be my choice hands down.
 

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I just happened to shoot a 90lb whitetail with my 270WSM Encore 2 weeks ago using a 130gr Scirocco. The shot was quartering and the bullet entered at the last rib and stopped under the skin forward of the shoulder. The bullet retained 110gr of original weight and was mushroomed beautifully. The deer dropped like a rock. My buddy had similar results with a 7mm SAUM with 150gr Scirocco on a 120lb 8pt (broadside heart shot). I think this is a good medium between Ballistic Tips and Partitions. Interesting to see what the other companies come up with!
 

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Huntsman - Just to avoid any confusion, "Core-Lokts" are NOT partitioned bullets. Nosler Partitions and Swift A-Frames are partitioned bullets and are loaded in some factory rounds (Federal and Remington that I know of). Remington's Core-Lokt bullet is a conventional cup type bullet that by the design of the jacket is supposed to minimize jacket/core seperations.

As for the bonded bullets, if the price is within reach (unlike the Scirocco!) I may try them when hunting large bodied deer (over 200lbs, ie. Maine/New Hampshire). But for my "normal" hunting, I'll probably stick with Hornady and Speer bullets.

Just wanted to clarify your comments a little ... Crayfish
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Crayfish,

I am not generally concerned with the price of bullets, but I do agree with your implication that expensive bullets, no matter how good they are, will not appeal to the average consumer - like the Scirocco.

Just out of curiosity, how expensive are the Sciroccos compared to the bullets that you use?

Zachary
 

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The new Nosler Accubond bullets are out. I just saw it on their website.

I was told from the technician that the new Accubond would retain about 70% of its weight, which is about the same as the Nosler Partition, but with better ballistics and probably better accuracy. However, the website says that this new bullet will retain close to 100% of its weight[/color]. That's incredible. I don't know how that is possible because it is still a polymer tipped bullet - which normally lose a higher percentage of weight. I guess that we'll just wait and see. I'm sure that some magazine will have a write-up on them relatively soon.

Zachary
 

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Actually I would disagree with your statement that partitions end up as normal caliber projectiles. I have never had one loose all it's petals. The forward core is almost always lost in the violent initial expansion but the jacket metal surrounding it is folded back and retained by the bullet. The bullets typically retain 65-68% of their initial weight and the remaining slug usually retains enough energy to exit, and I prefer a blood trail, usually. The folded back petal usually gives us a frontal diameter of at least a couple of calibers, with 30's becoming 32s, etc. The bonded bullets are completely different. They are typically standard cup and core bullets except the core is bonded (read soldered) to the jacket. At impact expansion tears the jacket and lead being a soft ductile material tears with it. The result is a bullet that expands ferociously typically dumping it's energy in the target and not exiting. They will sometimes literally turn inside out with the lead remaining bonded to the jacket.. Penetraion is limited and if an edible part is impacted early on the bullets travail, tissue distruction, especially at high impact velocities is spectacular. If heavy bone is hit expansion will be even more severe, to the point that the bullet may tear itself into fragments. This why bonded bullets always have thicker jackets to control fragmenting. Partitions usually give a violent expansion at impact which creates a large crush cavity early in the bullet path. The bullets remains will then continue penetrating and usually leave a good exit wound. This creates devastating wounds on a whitetail on a broadside shot and still provides adequate penetration to reach the vitals on a raking shot. On whitetails standard cup and core bullets will provide violent expansion on broadside shots with adequate penetration. Near instant kills are the norm although one must not take shots that have much in the way of angle. A cousin of mine loves the 308 with 150 Winchester PowerPoints, a very 'soft' cup and core style bullet. One shot kills are the norm with most bullets not exiting even on rib cage shots on medium sized animals.. All these designs are useful and effective, just understand what they're designed to do and as long as they are consistent..good luck from the gunnut69
 

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Discussion Starter #8
gunnut,

As with everything, general statements should not be taken too literally. When I stated that the Partitions end up with original diameter, I don't necessarily mean exact same[/color] diameter.

Even you stated that .30s look like .32s. I agree with you. However, that may not be "original" diameter, but, on the other hand, it's certainly not 2x or 1.5x expansion either. Rather, it is closer to original caliber.

I apologize if you took my statement too literally. :grin:

Zachary
 

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I use the Hornady Interlocks (129 grain) in my 6.5-06AI for whitetail because most of the shots here are 200 yards or less. I tried the Hornady SST in 129 grain and while I was impressed with how they shot, I was not impressed with their performance on deer. I am not a fan of any polymer tipped bullet, had bad experiences when the ballistic tips first came out and have jest never tried any of them again except for the vmax in 6.5 and 22 cal that perform as advertised on varmints.

When I go after Mule deer, Elk etc I switch to Nosler partitions.

I am lookin forward to getting some of each new bullet and trying them out on hogs, since I probably will not get any in time for deer season which ends in 4 days.

Pecos
 

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There was a very good jacketed bullet expansion article in Handloader Magazine several years ago. The author shot almost every available 180 grain 30 caliber bullet into an expansion medium. He shot each bullet several times into the test medium at each 100 FPS increment from 1800 fps to 3200 fps. He had photos of 3 of each bullet at every 100 FPS increment. So what looked the best? It was about a toss up between the
Remington round nose Core-lokt and the Swift A frame. There were a few others that looked decent but did not come close to these two.
Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I'm not surprised about the Swift A-Frame, but I must admit that I am surprised about the Core-lokt (even in round nose form). I mean you're talking about one of the most premium bullets out there, with one of the most conventional bullets out there. Also, the cost difference between the two must be shocking. I would have thought that the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw would have similar results. It must have been an interesting article. I wish I could have read it.

Zachary
 
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