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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
These passages speak of a very Godly man and people, but who WERE NOT part of Moses tribe of Israel.

Why is this important?
How many other peoples were faithful to the one true God at that time?
Why do you think God choses Moses and his group over the other faithful?

I have no answers, and am cuirous as to any guesses, educated or otherwise.
The talking donkey here shows that apparently animals speaking by Gods will was not a strange occurance.
"Bob
Addendum:
I noticed it mentioned "the book of God's wars" or something very similar; does anyone know how the professional Bible scholars define this one?
 

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Have you considered that God has used the ungodly (those who were not chosen) many times in scripture.
The ungodly must also do the will of God.
Now, try and make sense of that without considering the will of God too be greater than the will of man.
I cannot wrap my mind around the will of God and make sense of it---His ways are not mine to understand.
Now, that Balaam was a puppet of God is most apparent--but he was not a man of God.
Blessings
 

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I am assuming that you are talking CHAPTERS 22 thru 25 in Numbers. This would be quite an undertaking to CAPSULIZE this much material. Are you, or can you be more specific in what you are wanting. As to God using UNGODLY PEOPLE, to accomplish His desires, it is a given. The Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greecian Empire, and of course the Roman Empire, were all "ALLOWED" to come into being for the accomplishment of His desires, which ranged from PUNISHING ISRAEL, for turning away from Him to FREEING THEM FROM BONDAGE. ???
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Now before this gets out of hand, BALAAM WAS NOT, an ungodly person. Read the BOOK.

Yes I mean chapters 22-25.

I also am not going to let this turn into, a those without the true GOD were that way, BECAUSE he made them that was.
It is their choice or they are simply following the corruption of their fathers.
Numbers deals with a good deal of events for which there is unexplained (missing history) I just want guestinations or prol opinions, If "Gooooood works in mysterious way" is one, fine but I want more thought out ones, IF one has one.

I actually believe some of the books left out in the big meeting centuries ago may have history that is missing but I have not read them.

Bob
 

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Well Bob, I would have to disagree with you on Balaam's character, as he was famous, as pointed out in Numbers Chapter 22 verses 5 & 6, [/color] but if one reads closer, he was very much INTO HIMSELF as pointed out in Numbers Chapter 22 verses 12 thru 22,[/color] where he DISOBEYED and ANGERED GOD (VERSE 22), [/color] and God sent an ANGEL OF THE LORD armed with a sword "AGAINST" Balaam.[/color] The ass actually SAVED Balaam's life, by refusing to attempt to pass the angel. Balaam[/color]'s blindness to the angel's presence was due to his WANTING TO DO THINGS HIS WAY.[/color]
In Numbers Chapters 22 & 23, [/color] it is shown how DOUBLEMINDED, Balaam was [/color] to God's will in Balaam trying to ALTER GOD'S DEVINE PLAN[/color].
In Numbers Chapter 24[/color] he (Balaam) is SENT HOME, as his mission as a "Mercernary Prophet" is a failure. [/color] Numbers Chapter 24 verse 10.[/color]
In Numbers Chapter 31 verse 16,[/color] Balaam's council is described as EVIL, [/color] and caused the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL to TRESSPASS AGAINST THE LORD, and his EVIL council caused much carnage.

2nd Peter Chapter 2 verse 15. Which have "FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY", [/color] and are "GONE ASTRAY", FOLLOWING THE "WAY OF BALAAM" the son of Bosor, [/color] WHO "LOVED" THE WAGES OF "UNRIGHTEOUSNESS;[/color][/color]

This sounds like a description of a VERY "UNGODLY MAN" to me. Unless of course one DISAGREES WITH THE SCRIPTURE'S description of Balaam. I certainly don't have the nerve to do such a thing.

2nd Peter Chapter 2 verse 16. But was rebuked for his INIQUITY:[/color] the dumb ass speaking with man's voice FORBAD THE MADNESS OF THE PROPHET.[/[/color]color]

Doesn't sound to me like Balaam had a lot of sense here, by disobeying God to the point a (BIBLICAL DESCRIPTION) dumb ass, had to step in and save him from certain death at the hands of AN ANGEL OF THE LORD. Kinda makes ya wonder whom the dumb ass in this scripture really was. The donkey or Balaam. Seems to me, given GOD'S REFERAL to Balaam as the MAD PROPHET, it would be Balaam.

quote; FROM Bob Riebe Now before this gets out of hand, BALAAM WAS NOT, an ungodly person. Read the BOOK.

Perhaps Bob, it is "YOU" whom needs to READ THE BOOK. Balaam in the OLD TESTAMENT, and the NEW TESTAMENT is not at all described as being a GODLY MAN, but as an UNGODLY "MAD" MAN.[/color] I for one will go with the SCRIPTURES ANALOGY, of Balaam, rather than yours. He was the EPITOMY of an UNGODLY MAN, and in fact was AN EVIL MAN.[/color]
 

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I think Dee is correct.
Schofield writes That Balaam was a typical hireling prophet only marketing his gift and that he cauterizes false teachers.
Now we get too the sticky part.
Why was he given this gift from God if he is/was a false teacher?? I am assuming this is the Crux of the question.
There are, IMO, many examples it the old and new testaments of those who God granted powers---maybe they were allowed for the purpose God wanted, my opinion.
We cannot determine all of the will of God but we can determine that it was under the authority of God and used for His purpose.
The error of Balaam, as pointed out in the new testament, was that he could only see the natural morality---a Holy God must curse Israel, being unaware of of the higher morality of atonement, by which God is not only just and yet the justifier of believing sinners. Balaamism teaches to never rise above natural reasoning.
IMO and Imano.
Blessings
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Show me where he disobeys God, the part with the talking donkey, God told him to go.
Verse nineteen he says he must stay the night for God's instruction, God told him to go but was annoyed that he did what he was told (I believe something is missing here in the translation as God said Go, AND HE DID)

So show me where he went against God's wishes.
He died for God's reasons, BUTAGAIN show me where he did not consult and follow God's wishes.

I see too much philosophy being put into play here that these verses do not speak.
This Balaam was the son of Beor, not Bosor.

If there are verses that say Balaam, son of Beor, was wicked with eyes only for wickedness then please direct them to me, but in the verses I mentinond, he DID GODS WORK.
Bob
 

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Bob said:
Show me where he disobeys God, the part with the talking donkey, God told him to go.
Verse nineteen he says he must stay the night for God's instruction, God told him to go but was annoyed that he did what he was told (I believe something is missing here in the translation as God said Go, AND HE DID)

So show me where he went against God's wishes.

Numbers Chapter 22 verse 12. And God said unto Balaam, THOU SHALT NOT GO WITH THEM[/color]; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.[/color]

God in verse 12 [/color] TOLD HIM NOT TO GO with the men, Bob.
Numbers Chapter 22 verse 20. And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to CALL THEE, rise up, and go with them; BUT YET THE WORD WHICH I SHALL SAY UNTO THEE, "THAT SHALT THOU DO".[/[/color][/color]color]

This is the verse I think you are confusing with what God is telling him to do, which was Verse 12, with what the MEN were going to say to him, by wanting him to go with them. The last part of VERSE 20, is where God is reminding him of what HE TOLD HIM TO DO WHICH WAS NOT GO. God DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND BETWEEN VERSE 12 and VERSE 20.[/color]

THIS IS WHY GOD SENT THE "ANGEL OF THE LORD" ARMED WITH A SWORD "AGAINST BALAAM" TO STOP HIM FROM DIRECTLY DISOBEYING GOD'S ORDERS NOT TO GO, which is described in the above mentioned verses Numbers Chapter 22 verses 22 thru 33.[/color]
He died for God's reasons, BUTAGAIN show me where he did not consult and follow God's wishes.[/[/color]

I see too much philosophy being put into play here that these verses do not speak.
This Balaam was the son of Beor, not Bosor.[/color]

Bob, there was one talking donkey in the entire Bible. That the father's name is spelled slightly different, from OLD TESTAMENT to NEW TESTAMENT is of NO CONSEQUENCE. They are THE SAME MAN.
Verses 15 and 16, of 2nd Peter Chapter 2,[/color] CONFIRM THIS. Are you, like some others, going to take up the habit of DENYING SCRIPTURAL CLAIRITY? There is NO PHILOSOPHY HERE what so ever.[/color]

If there are verses that say Balaam, son of Beor, was wicked with eyes only for wickedness then please direct them to me, but in the verses I mentinond, he DID GODS WORK.
Bob[/color]

Bob, not only did I direct you to them, I took the time to POST THEM. On another note SAMPSON did GOD'S WORK, but was NOT a Godly man. He was like Balaam, a man of SELF. The scriptures have been given to you. Reject them or accept them. It's your call.[/color]
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
quote author=Dee link=topic=128516.msg1098468067#msg1098468067 date=1193000767]
quote author=Bob Riebe link=topic=128516.msg1098468012#msg1098468012 date=1192992550]
Show me where he disobeys God, the part with the talking donkey, God told him to go.
Verse nineteen he says he must stay the night for God's instruction, God told him to go but was annoyed that he did what he was told (I believe something is missing here in the translation as God said Go, AND HE DID)

So show me where he went against God's wishes.

Numbers Chapter 22 verse 12. And God said unto Balaam, THOU SHALT NOT GO WITH THEM[/color]; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.[/color]

God in verse 12 [/color] TOLD HIM NOT TO GO with the men, Bob.
Numbers Chapter 22 verse 20. And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to CALL THEE, rise up, and go with them; BUT YET THE WORD WHICH I SHALL SAY UNTO THEE, "THAT SHALT THOU DO".[/[/color][/color]color]

This is the verse I think you are confusing with what God is telling him to do, which was Verse 12, with what the MEN were going to say to him, by wanting him to go with them. The last part of VERSE 20, is where God is reminding him of what HE TOLD HIM TO DO WHICH WAS NOT GO. God DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND BETWEEN VERSE 12 and VERSE 20.[/color]You are reading that wrong the first time he did as God said; the second time it sas "AND go with them; and YET the word THAT I SAY (NOT SAID) unto you, that shalt thoug do."

NOw maybe he expected Balaam to be smart enough to listen to the donkey without a speech, but I do not know.[/color]

THIS IS WHY GOD SENT THE "ANGEL OF THE LORD" ARMED WITH A SWORD "AGAINST BALAAM" TO STOP HIM FROM DIRECTLY DISOBEYING GOD'S ORDERS NOT TO GO, which is described in the above mentioned verses Numbers Chapter 22 verses 22 thru 33.[/color]
He died for God's reasons, BUTAGAIN show me where he did not consult and follow God's wishes.[/[/color]

I see too much philosophy being put into play here that these verses do not speak.
This Balaam was the son of Beor, not Bosor.[/color]

Bob, there was one talking donkey in the entire Bible. That the father's name is spelled slightly different, from OLD TESTAMENT to NEW TESTAMENT is of NO CONSEQUENCE. They are THE SAME MAN.
Verses 15 and 16, of 2nd Peter Chapter 2,[/color] CONFIRM THIS. Are you, like some others, going to take up the habit of DENYING SCRIPTURAL CLAIRITY? There is NO PHILOSOPHY HERE what so ever.[/color]

If there are verses that say Balaam, son of Beor, was wicked with eyes only for wickedness then please direct them to me, but in the verses I mentinond, he DID GODS WORK.
Bob[/color]

Bob, not only did I direct you to them, I took the time to POST THEM. On another note SAMPSON did GOD'S WORK, but was NOT a Godly man. He was like Balaam, a man of SELF. The scriptures have been given to you. Reject them or accept them. It's your call.[/color]
[/quote]
[/quote]
IF one is going to take the Bible at face value, CLOSE is not good enough. Different name may be because of poor translation, but maybe not, not to be sarcastic, show me where in the Bible it says close is good enough.
Also in the chapters with Balaam, HE DOES NOTHING without praying to God, and I am supposed to simply beilieve that a versin in the NEW TESTAMENT with a different name, is MORE CORRECT than the litteral version in the Old Testament.
Samson sinned, David sinned, Moses deprived himself of entering the promised land, Solomon, the wisest man of all time, was one of the greatest sinners.
HOw many in the old testament were as great as the Baptist, who may not have been sinless, but I would say he was as close as Enoch.

There are books quoted in the New Testament that are no longer around, so to say there was ONLY ONE talking Donkey, is supposition.[/color]
 

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I don't view this as a philosophical question--it is trying to determine some things that are not directly addressed.
There is something to be considered in the statements --don't go and go.
The question is why did God say go? After all He had already said don't.
The one point that will not go away is that Israel was already chosen and would always be.
NOW--if we put this into a worldly/human view--and this is where much error comes from, for god IS and makes no decisions based on human reaction or desire--God could have said go knowing the outcome of the going before it ever happened. The point that He got angry because Balaam went is where we must make/do make decisions about why.
God most certainly---IMO---knew what was about to happen.
Free will being considered as an answer--then God got angry because Balaam chose his will over God's.
If you consider divine will as a source of consideration---Balaam was never in God's loop other than as a tool.
This anger point is interesting---we see/seem too see God getting angry in a number of scriptures. If God is there is no chance that this "anger" can/could/should be considered as an exact representation of God representing the same attributes as man--well in this anger conversation.
I would think that the anger was in relationship with God's will and His showing that man cannot exert his will over HIS.
In other words Balaam challenged God and God took the challenge.
Who won out??
Blessings
 

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Bob, I gave you the scriptures. That is all I can do. They like others are clear when looked at in context, and end. You are by refusing them are also REFUSING the FACT, that God sent an ARMED ANGEL to stop Balaam. You are further IGNORING that in verse 34[/color] BALAAM HIMSELF, admits to the Angel of the Lord, I HAVE SINNED; A child recognizes a switch when he has error ed, and Balaam certainly recognized his err and REPENTED ON THE SPOT.
The KEY to the misunderstanding of the scripture of GOD'S INSTRUCTION TO BALAAM is in verse 20[/color]. God HAS NOT changed His mind. He is telling Balaam, that if the men come to him i.e. CALL THEE, and bid him to go with them, that he (Balaam) should remember His (God's) instructions which were CLEARLY "DON'T GO WITH THEM" in verse 12[/color].
Your referral to LOST SCRIPTURES is "PURELY" speculation, and to worry about something that GOD SAW FIT to eliminate is robbing one's self of SPIRITUAL GROWTH, by worrying about what God SAW FIT to allow to disappear if it ever existed in the first place.
Such pondering are Satan's distractions from the Scripture, and they work very well, much of the time. I would encourage you to read and STUDY, 1st Corinthians Chapter 1 verses 19 thru 25,[/color] and realize there is MUCH WISDOM in these scriptures which would apply DIRECTLY to what I have just said. This is not MY PHILOSOPHY, but rather, God's instruction to me, and ALL Christians.
These RANTINGS of men on supposed LOST SCRIPTURES and so on, are just that. MAN'S RANTINGS. If God had intended these MYSTERIOUSLY MISSING "ALEDGED" books to be part of the Bible, they would be. God is God. I hold the Scriptures up as a "measuring stick for man" not "man as the measuring stick for the Bible". God DECIDED a long time ago, what should survive, and what should perish, in the way of scripture, and man had then and has now, no control of that fact. The ACTUAL WORD cannot be done away with, it will, and has survived.

Isaiah Chapter 40 verse 8. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the WORD OF OUR GOD SHALL STAND FOR EVER.[/color] And Bob it is still standing, if one stops looking else where in "man's libraries".

Also Psalms Chapter 119 verse 89, Matthew Chapter 5 verse 18, Matthew Chapter 24 verse 35, & 1st Peter Chapter 1 verse 25.[/color]

Good luck, I can shed no more light on this subject, than what is available in the scriptures themselves, and that I have done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Gents:
I have come to the conclusion, and this is fairly recent, we have only the history that we have because God determined that is all man can handle without totally screwing things up worse than they already are.

These verses I still find interesting because Balaam WAS a man with faith in God, and he was not of Israel.
He was a man of God before they got there so there MUST HAVE BEEN other people/s that still held to the truth that Noah brought forth from the Ark.

There arre no answers, but I will wonder till the day I die, how many people had faith in God, back then other than Israel, whose faith was luke warm at best.

Bob
PS-take any answer to this to the free will thread, but if Balaam does not show free will, then God in his total control is like a man arguing with himself in a mirror.
 

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Bob said:
Gents:
I have come to the conclusion, and this is fairly recent, we have only the history that we have because God determined that is all man can handle without totally screwing things up worse than they already are.

These verses I still find interesting because Balaam WAS a man with faith in God, and he was not of Israel.
He was a man of God before they got there so there MUST HAVE BEEN other people/s that still held to the truth that Noah brought forth from the Ark.

There arre no answers, but I will wonder till the day I die, how many people had faith in God, back then other than Israel, whose faith was luke warm at best.

Bob, there are many answers to many questions, but one has to OPEN ONE'S HEART, and let God speak to him, THRU THE SCRIPTURES. To fight it over what WAS (maybe) or WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN, is to defeat one's self, and close one's own heart. The answer to this question as to the number of people whom had faith in God during that time, will not matter, if one DEVOTES HIS STUDY, to what "IS" available. Denomonation does not matter, and tradition does not matter. SOUND DOCTRINE "DOES MATTER", and a heart to study, understand, and PLEASE GOD.[/color]

Bob, that is the point. Balaam conversed WITH GOD, but was SELF WILLED and it got him into trouble to the point that his MISSIONARY TRIP FAILED. He has been refered to in the past by Bible Scholars as the Mercenary Prophet, as he did it not necessarily for God but for RECOGNITION of himself.[/color]
Bob

PS-take any answer to this to the free will thread, but if Balaam does not show free will, then God in his total control is like a man arguing with himself in a mirror.

You will certainly find no argument from me on this statement. He (Balaam) CONSTANTLY tried to TWIST God's purpose to his OWN LIKING. If that isn't freewill, I don't know what is.[/color]
 

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I have held this statement you made in the first sentence for more years than I can remember---which only goes back 15 minutes.
It is our futile attempt too understand and define God---put Him in a box that satisfies our conscious as well as our mind---that is the basis for much rambling.
We are not God and we don't come close to His way of thinking.
Our answers too silence are very telling.
Blessings
 

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Why do you think God choses Moses and his group over the other faithful?
Because of His "promise to Abraham".

Balaam's actions are explained in Josh. 24:9,10 and 2 Pet 2:15,16.
 

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Gary said:
Why do you think God choses Moses and his group over the other faithful?
Because of His "promise to Abraham".

A scripturally SOUND answer.[/color]

Balaam's actions are explained in Josh. 24:9,10 and 2 Pet 2:15,16.
They certainly were, weren't they. [/color]
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Gary said:
Why do you think God choses Moses and his group over the other faithful?
Because of His "promise to Abraham".

Balaam's actions are explained in Josh. 24:9,10 and 2 Pet 2:15,16.
Until an educated scholar gives me the why and wherefore of the naming of the father Balaam in in 2 Peter is not the same as in Numbers, I will not assume they are the same person/s, BUT Joshua does a good job of explaining the favorite child status of Israel, but again, Balaam NEVER, from the info we have recored, did not check with GOD FIRST, so faith in God, was NOT one of his lackings.

It makes me wish I were a scholar of Bible history so I could gain access to any writings, not in the Bible, that give a greater history (IF, IF they exist) not having anything to do with salvation but for histories sake.

I will, till the day I die, never stop wondering why Abraham was chosen over other peoples who still had faith in God.
That is of zero importance towards salvation, as what is done, is done, but IF one could find ANY information that truly gives a clearer picturel it would probably reveal much, but as I have said before, it would also probably just be another source for man to totally screw things up.

Bob
 

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Well, Bob the Bible gives you your answer if you know where to look. Abraham was EXCEPTIONAL in his FAITH TOWARD GOD, in many ways above the average man. Here are some examples;

Obedience; Genesis Chapter 12 verse 4.[/color]
Unselfishness; [/color] Genesis Chapter 13 verse 9.[/color]
Had great courage; [/color] Genesis Chapter 14 verse 14[/color]
Was Benevolent; [/color] Genesis Chapter 14 verse 20.[/color]
Was Incorruptible; [/color] Genesis Chapter 14 verse 23.[/color]
Was a MIGHTY prayer warrior; [/color] Genesis Chapter 18 verses 23 thru 33.[/color]
And was considered WONDERFUL IN FAITH; [/color] Hebrews Chapter 11 verse 17.

Abraham was on a par, with Enoch, whom walked with God, and NEVER TASTED DEATH, but was taken up, as was also Elijah both of whom NEVER DOUBTED GOD, and never saw death, as their reward. Abraham's reward was to father all mankind.

Many men, had many of Abraham's traits, but none had them all, as he did. He was the best of the best in his time.[/color]
 

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Bob said:
Gary said:
Why do you think God choses Moses and his group over the other faithful?
Because of His "promise to Abraham".

Balaam's actions are explained in Josh. 24:9,10 and 2 Pet 2:15,16.
Until an educated scholar gives me the why and wherefore of the naming of the father Balaam in in 2 Peter is not the same as in Numbers, I will not assume they are the same person/s, BUT Joshua does a good job of explaining the favorite child status of Israel, but again, Balaam NEVER, from the info we have recored, did not check with GOD FIRST, so faith in God, was NOT one of his lackings.

It makes me wish I were a scholar of Bible history so I could gain access to any writings, not in the Bible, that give a greater history (IF, IF they exist) not having anything to do with salvation but for histories sake.

I will, till the day I die, never stop wondering why Abraham was chosen over other peoples who still had faith in God.
That is of zero importance towards salvation, as what is done, is done, but IF one could find ANY information that truly gives a clearer picturel it would probably reveal much, but as I have said before, it would also probably just be another source for man to totally screw things up.

Bob
Balak wanted to hire Balaam to curse Israel.

God said NO to Balaam, vs. 12. so Balaam didn't want to go.

Balak offered Balaam more money ( honor and riches), vs 17

(At this point something is lost in the meaning when translating from Hebrew to English. It seems that Balak wanted, in his own head, to go with them. God lets man make his choice to go the way he wants, even if it is not what God desires. We see that in Israel wanting a King, also as explained in Romans 1:24... concerning the gentiles, and many other examples in the Bible.)

Balaam now wanted to go, so God let him. vs.20

God was angered that he went. vs. 22 (proof of the parenthetical part)

This is the usage of Balaam in 2 Peter 2:15,16 and Jude 11, that he was willing to "sell out" truth and righteousness for personal riches and honor. (also proof)

Gary
-------------------------------------------------------
(They are the same person. Read vs. 16 of 2 Pet. 2.)
 

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I will, till the day I die, never stop wondering why Abraham was chosen over other peoples who still had faith in God.
There's no need to wonder.
The Bible tells us that God knows our very thoughts and He knows our hearts. That being so, God knew the heart of Abraham and of all the other righteous people living in his day. I'd say God was well qualified to chose the one to best suit His purposes, wouldn't you?
 
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