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I'm trying to work up a good self-defense load and am concerned about penetration. I want to get good penetration without going clear through the bad guy and out into the world.
I've heard that if you soak old phone books and bundle a few together that will give you a pretty good estimation of what your load will do should you need it in real life.
Any opinions? Ideas for other testing material?

Thanks
 

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yes buy factory ammo! do you actually think you can build a better load! that will be the magic bullet that will work for 120 femaleor 320 pound male without to much or not enough penetration! how about in the winter with 3 layers of clothing on! or shall i continue! get a good couple of boxes of factory ammo and use them as a test bed! then maybe test your super secret load against the factory stuff! humm maybe all those relaoding books i have contain a secret recipe fed,win,rem,hor,etc dont know about! ! or that the compontes of theres your using! will be better! let me know how it turn out
 

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beetle this is not a slam but why do people think they can get a better self defense load than whats out there! the only thing you can do is make it go faster! or slower! ! i dont see the point!
 

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Deputy is 100% correct! Factory is better. Then you don't hold the ADDITIONAL liability for designing a load if you are forced to shoot in self defense.
 

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I disagree with the last 3 post. My hand loads are much better because they have been worked to get the "best group" for every rifle/pistol I own. I can get BETTER groups with my handloads, doesn't that make them better? I have a 1911, 44 spc Taurus, and a 686 S&W that will not group with any of the factory loads I've tried, but they shoot very well with handloads.

Rick

Would you rather shoot a load that is PC ( as of now, I cannot find any case where a handload has been invloved in a civilian shooting that has gone to court) OR a load that you can hit better with? Or are some saying factory loads shoot better groups than worked up handloads? This subject is also being discussed on several other boards, some with lawyers as members.
 

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Handloads

:D Volshooter,I agree with what you are saying.The reason I reload is for the better bullet,accuracy, and load.I personally have not purchased any factory ammo in many years. Every load I use is taylored for the intended firearm. When it comes to protecting my family,I intend to do it the best way I know how with the best I have to work with. Now,I might use a 45 reload,or a 308 reload,or a butcher knife,a chain saw,or a pot of scalding water.The point I'm trying to make is I intend to win if I have to fight. We can discuss the fight after I win if anyone would like.Just my .02 cents worth,not written in stone...I am CAL......
 

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Reload or not to reload is the question? the answer to the " not having to have happened to see a reload go to court" : is that the average bubba that reloads, is smart enough to stay out of most fire fights. they might be the insightfull ones that leaves the tracks. So that the investegators need to scratch thier heads about. Who was this and why dosen't this set of tracks tell me any thing?
 

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:D Beetle. Use factory loads for self defense,do not use handloads. If you are in a selfdefense situation you are not going to be shooting at over 10 yards at the most. I dont think group size is going to be a factor at this distance. Your handloads are not goint to do you any better that any of the factory loads that are out there. One of the guys said that he has not noticed where anyone has had to go to court for using his handloads. Well,if the shooting is justified,it is going to be irrelivant anyway. The only time he is going to have to worry is if he is playing cowboy,and using his super secret floor stompin,rhino stopping load that is GUARANTEED to kill da badguy flat. He is not only going to look like a fool,but he is going to have some major problems if the shooting is a bit on the shady side. Now,where ya have to worry again is probably civil court,and im real tired of attempting to put some sense in peoples heads. Guys that are knowledgable with the laws,use factory loads. Those that arnt,think they can..improove on it. You probably were given the advise of about a total of at least 70 yrs of police experiance, from the guys that responded to you. I sugest you use that info and your head. King
 

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10yds?

C'mon King,
10yds, How about 10 feet, or less?

BTW, the "Advocates" will promptly destroy anyone who claims anything other than a passing knowledge of ammunition's performance.

The less you claim to know, the less they can show of what you DON'T know!
 

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:-D L-Roy. Most shootings of a personal nature are going to be a lot less,with seven yards about the maximum. What I was refering to was that at that range the one hole group at 25 yards is going to kinda be a mute point,you are going to be putting as much lead into the bad guy that ya can to make him stop whatever he is doing,a round that shoots 4 inches at 25 is gunna do the job just as well. I also almost fergot. If ya do get into an altercation,its probably not going to be with just one guy,probably going to be another or a third. They kinda run in packs at times. I use semi autos for almost all of the serious type work,and I dont want to take the chance of a jam. I have had a lot of handloads do that in very rapid fire situations,thats another reason to not be using handloads.(Shooting targets,and a two legged critter is something differant ,the two leged one is trying to hurt ya,and a lot of factors will come in to that shooting) Even if ya have cycled them through the gun to make sure that they will cycle. If the bad guys has a a knife,and you are still holstered and lets say the distance is that magical seven yards,or for that matter 10. The bad guy will get to you,and stab ya,before you can draw and shoot. 21 feet seems to be the magic number on that,but I have seen it done at 10 yards . At point blak range,it makes very little diferance how accurate the round is,when is in feet,just pint a shoot,a lot......King I sure agree on the advocates,the less ya seem to know,they less that will get ya into trouble with what ya dont know.
 

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King do you think the justice system would look any different at a civilian shooting weather BLACK TALONS or HYDRO-SHOCK or hard cast hand loads are used? The first two loads are extremely tissue damaging by anyone's standards and are basically unobtainable by handloading methods. Both are meant to cause maxium soft tissue damage and would be viewed so in the courts.
HOWEVER...I have had many jambs using factory ammo, making it unreliable (lesss than 100%) getting a 2nd shot off. My target speed handloads don't jamb are extremely controlable and are very cheap for me to practice alot with. I personally think you should practice with what you intend to carry. Trying to get enough practice with HYDRA-SHOCK's would pert near ruin anyone's wallet.
Carry what you want cause I do, it's what shoots best in my guns. :D

Rick

BTW I would art least expect my carry gun to be able to dispatch a copperhead when called on and I want a nickle size group at 10 feet. yeah.. yeah.. I know, some like Jeff Cooper frown if you kill a snake you have already seen and are able to walk around. I'm not PC and Copperheads rate a 100% kill vote around here.
 

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:D Volshooter. The key in this question is weather the shooting that the individual got involved in was one that he could not walk away from.....i.e. it was one that was rulled by the judicial system to be Justified (justifiable homocide). In this case the criminal justice system is not going to care weather ya used any of the aformentioned factory rounds,or for that matter a handload. The shooter acted in a proper manner to protect himself or others from great bodily harm or death. What you,the shooter was using to stop the bad guy from whatever he was doing which was grave enough to require that you do so is not going to be a problem. From a .22 to a small cannon. That is not going to be a problem. What the entire content of this information is,is what occures after the judicial system concluded that you were rightious,meaning weather you violated any types of criminal law. If they clear ya,it is a good shoot. Now,where the problem comes in is is CIVIL COURT. Meaning the bad guys relatives are trying toproove a wrongfull death on your part. Believe me,if you get involved in a shoot,and even if you are cleared by the judicial system(criminally speaking) ,the bad guy,if not killed can go after you for..maiming him or whatever. His relatives,live in gfriend,and so forth can,and will go after you for doing the shoot. I dont like this,but nontheless it is going to happen in about 100 percent of the cases that do accure that were ruled justifiable. Civil court is a pain in the butt. If they can show(not the prosecutor now) but thier private attourney that you manufactured rounds that were...more..devastating than what was commercially manufactured,you will b painted as a gunslinger in court. Your atty is going to have to attempt to get around this. He may or may not be sucessfull on this bent. The judge is the one that has to be convinced,or fer that matter a jury. It makes no differance in this arena if you were a civilian doing the shooting,or a LEO. What my point is,dont put any more wildcards into the game that are necessary . You want to make yourself look like a harvey milktoast that was simply going about your business when ya got jumped by the bad guy.,all you did was defend your life and the bad guy lost. Attempt to keep everything as simpla as possible. Again the last thing that you want to do is paint yourself in a light other that what actually occured. If you used handloaded ammo,it is a wild card that they will use against you. The jury might totally agree with what you did,but the fact that ya turned him inside out from yer hopped up load is going to cause them to think a little. I tell everyone that asks me,including off duty officers,to carry your department ammo in your off duty gun,same as when on duty. It will be kinda hard for thier atty to go after you for using something that the LEO use to protect themselves,or what you can get over the counter to do so. Now in ref to the hp rounds like black talon,and other hp. They are constructed to give a limited amount of penitration,in order to make them into a limited penitration round,and still do thier job,they are constructed in hp configuration.,and inturn to expand in a controlled manner. The last thing you want to get into is your home brewed round going through the perpatrater and hitting granny goodwitch walking her grandkids down the street getting an icecream cone. Now,where and when the altercation occured is not up to you,the shooter. It is up to where the bad guys says its gunna happen. If he decides yer gunna get robbed in the parking lot a a popular local stop and rob,then thats where its gunna happen. You dont want that special something going through him,and inturn hitting that innocent bystander,cause now he is gunna name ya in the suit besides the perps relatives. By now you should figure that in the civil court you are getting a little outnumbered,and thier are a lot more plaintiffs involved,not to mention the confusion. So far there have not been any lawsuites ...sucessfully that I know about with a civilian,or a LEO,where a bystander was hit by a shoot through . As a former LEO,I am one of the few(meaning I did not have any rank,just a grunt cop)that was totally for a civilians rights to carry at anytime,providing he did not have an alcohol problem or being a prior criminal. Why would anyone,who does carry,want to color himself as anything but an innocent person attempting to go about his business when he smoked a bad guy. Some atty will and have,looked on that individual as being someone that is looking for a fight because of the simple fact that he wanted to,and used,ammo that he made himself. If you are having problems with factory rounds in your gun,purchase differand makes,and round configurations untill you do get one that does not cause you problems. I carry all of the time,and every round that is in my gun is made at a factory. As for the cost of purchasing that ammo,look at the cost of the civil suite that is going to occure when you do get into trouble that you could not avoid. A lot of LEO are commng around to really liking civilians carrying,we dont care what ya were using,we just want ya safe. The less factors that are inserted into a shoot the better. Now,im not telling ya this cause I like to type my friend,im telling ya what can and does occure,you have to make up your own mind where ya wanna be,and a civil trial is gunna probably end up being the cost of your home,savings and just plain lots of money,and that is if ya win. Now,as fer killing snakes. I think that is the most idiotic thing that ya can do. That animal is not a threat to ya,so why kill it,its just going around making a living fer itself. I will not kill anything unless im going to eat it,or it is a direct and immeadiate threat to my health . Stay safe,and I hope ya understand where im comming from. King
 

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Ammo

:D Hello King, I personally understand what you are refering too now after your last post.I agree with what you are saying about the lawsuits after the shooting too.The people doing the sueing are going to go for whatever door is open.You are correct also about loseing your house,land,savings,etc.You know even if you are right all the way around there is still the possibility of a lawsuit from some kinfolks,or the perpertrator if he lives.There is also the odds of drawing a pro gun jury too.The negative list is really long if you think about it. If a person has to shoot,it best be justifiable and have no other choice.I hope I never have to,I am CAL.........
 

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You type and write well but the reloads are staying for me. If I ever end up in a civil court for a shooting I might reflect, but I'll keep with what my pistol likes.
As for copperheads, well just try having one nest in your corn crib or wood pile (I've had both and it almost cost dad his life, SHOO! doesn't work) All other snakes are just fine, but penny heads got to go, they as as dangerous as a cocked gun. I've been struck at bow hunting and working in my own yard. Why would I leave such an animal that close to me & my children? We have enough to worry about without a copperhead in the yard, know what I mean? :wink:
Rick




.44 shot cap filled with 7 & 1/2 lead = pest control
 

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Copperhead

:D Ya right about the copperhead.Those boys don't need an excuse to bite ya.Killed three this past summer under mer front porch. One er the rewards of living in er South Ga.I guess. I don't kill all snakes,just the posion ones.I don't like none of um though!!! I am CAL....
 

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Volshooter............... I dont have a problem if they be around the woodpile and yard type area. My mind set was just out walking around in the woods and poping them.,fer grins and such. It does make things kinda interesting when yer hauling wood,and they be in there. I was not planning to changer yer mind on what ya carry in you gun. Each of us will do as he/she feels that is applicable to them,its just that hindsight is 20/20. I would rather be tried by 12,that carried by 6 is also applicable. Stay safe..King
 

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Volshooter............... I dont have a problem if they be around the woodpile and yard type area. My mind set was just out walking around in the woods and poping them.,fer grins and such. It does make things kinda interesting when yer hauling wood,and they be in there. I was not planning to changer yer mind on what ya carry in you gun. Each of us will do as he/she feels that is applicable to them,its just that hindsight is 20/20. I would rather be tried by 12,that carried by 6 is also applicable. Stay safe..King
 
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