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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Lady got pulled over in TX for failing to signal lane change, as she moved over when trooper came flying up behind her. Or it may have been because she was black and had out-of-state plates, but we don't know that. Leave it at Failure to Signal (may have been a slow day of the job for the trooper)

She was badly treated at the stop. Arrested. Committed suicide a couple days later in jail.

Here is a transcript of what happened. Cop was unable to keep his ego in check.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sandra-bland-arrest-transcript_55b03a88e4b0a9b94853b1f1

Then there's the question of lawful orders, vs them that ain't. Probably best to follow both, because when agents of the state who are empowered to deal out violence with near impunity have you on the side of the road, self-preservation should kick in as priority #1. It is in your best interest to kowtow, and to do what you can to calm the officer and make him comfortable. Once the police officer utters something that the courts have recognized as a lawful order that you must obey, your life and liberty are no longer your own if you refuse. Of course... most people don't know precisely what is/is not a lawful order.
And it doesn't matter at that moment, whether the officer's commands are lawful - deal with that later. Self-preservation.

**see transcript - "Put out your cigarette" is not a lawful order that you are obliged to obey; "get out of the car" is, and from the law's perspective it matters not one whit that the lawful order came after you refused a request you had a right to refuse.**

What this means, in practice, is that the citizen has no rights worth mentioning in an encounter with a police officer, unless he or she is very sure of where the lines are and is willing to calmly accept the consequences of an officer's misbehavior, with the thought that it can be sorted out later. Putting up a fight at the time is suicidal.

Apparently, the cop's bosses think he was wrong, too.

SOME WILL see this sad incident as racial. It is not. It is something worse.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-mullen/sandra-bland-arrest-wasnt_b_7849052.html

It's easy to assume racism when watching the video footage of Sandra Bland's arrest. Admittedly, the first question that entered this writer's mind when watching it was, "Would a white woman have been treated this way during a routine traffic stop?"


I believe the answer is "yes," if the white woman committed the cardinal sin Sandra Bland committed. It wasn't her being black that started the tragic chain of events. It was refusing to follow a police officer's orders.


At some point between ratification of the Fourth Amendment and the death of Sandra Bland, the entire principle underpinning that constitutional protection has been lost. The Fourth Amendment assumes armed agents of the state can't be trusted to issue their own orders. That's why we have warrants in the first place. They are permitted only to enforce the orders of an impartial judge, who authorizes them to apprehend suspects upon the judge's determination of probable cause.


That's not to say many or most officers aren't well-intentioned or trustworthy. But their job is to use force. That role must be separated from the issuance of orders.


Had Sandra Bland been a murder suspect and arresting officer Brian Encinia serving a warrant for her arrest, no one would have questioned Encinia's conduct in ordering her out of her car. One might even find room to excuse his order to stop smoking, if she were assumed to be someone who had already killed another human being.


But Bland wasn't a murder suspect. As she quite rationally protested, she was ordered out of her car over a "failure to signal." She had complied with the traffic stop. I seriously doubt there is a law or ordinance requiring her to stop smoking while being issued a citation for a traffic violation.


Encinia didn't even phrase his initial request as an order. His exact words were, "You mind putting out your cigarette, please, if you don't mind?" It was Bland's refusal to comply with this non-order that incited Encinia's indignation and subsequent order to exit her car.


Ultimately, we have to look at what we are asking police officers to do and how we are training them to do it. Encinia may have treated Bland differently because she was black. We can't read his mind. But it's much more likely he treated her the way he did because she didn't exhibit blind obedience to his every whim, something he was trained not to tolerate and Americans of all political persuasions seem to have acquiesced to without question.


Life and property have to be protected. When a real crime is committed, men or women with guns are often needed to bring in the suspect to answer the charges. That only occurs after an adversarial process during which a judge assumes an arrest is unjustified until the officer presents enough evidence to persuade him otherwise. Until then, police officers aren't authorized to give orders to anyone.


We need to get back to that relationship between citizen and law enforcement officer.


This wouldn't hamper police officers from protecting innocent people from violent crimes on those rare occasions when they are present while they are occurring. All individuals have a right to defend victims with force under those circumstances, whether employed by the government or not. But private individuals don't have the authority to walk around giving people orders, even if they suspect them of having broken the law.


In a free society, neither do cops.
 

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Why is it OK for the cops to blow by you on the hiway, no lights or siren. Go down the road a few miles and there is the cop sitting in the median. That's only one example of how some cops flaunt the law. They wonder why there is less respect for cops, they are no different then anyone else, in spite of what they think, they need to EARN respect, and when they abuse their position they are criminals, and should be treated as such.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Interesting commentary by police - well, most likely police - at various boards

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cops-sandra-bland-video_55afd6d3e4b07af29d57291d

I saw this from a commentator, as imagined alternative way this stop could have gone down... and it made me smile:

POLICE STORY: An Alternate Universe

SETTING: A warm, sunny day in a mid-size Texas town. A Texas state trooper pulls a driver over for a minor traffic violation. He makes a quick assessment of the vehicle and occupants, then approaches the driver, still seated in the car.

Troope
r (in a friendly tone): "Good afternoon, ma'am. I'm Trooper Brian, Texas State Police. I stopped you because I noticed that you changed lanes without signaling, which, I have to say, is really not a safe thing to do here in the great State of Texas."

Driver: RAISING A RUCKUS...

Trooper: "Ma'am, I understand this is an inconvenience, but I'm just doing my job, keeping the people of this town safe, as I'm sure you would want them to be."

Driver: RAISING NOT SO MUCH OF A RUCKUS...

Trooper: "Do you live around here, ma'am? Are you trying to find your way around?"

Driver: CALMER...

Trooper: "Oh, you just moved here? Well, you picked a great state, if I must say so myself. I have to tell you, though, we're kind of tough on traffic laws here in the great state of Texas. Sometimes the simplest driving errors, however unintentional, can get someone hurt. So we want all our drivers to be aware. But because I did stop you, I'll have to make a routine check just to make sure we all stay safe. I'm sure you understand that, don't you agree?"

Driver: Calm...

Trooper: "Great. We'll make a quick check and you can be on your way. How's that sound?"

Driver: "Are all troopers in this town as friendly and professional as you?"

Trooper: CHUCKLE! "Sure they are, but we can be bears early in the morning or after lunch!"

Driver: "Well, get to it, man!" LAUGHS!

Trooper: "Fantastic. Can I get your driver's license and insurance card, please?" DRIVER HANDS OVER DRIVER'S LICENSE AND INSURANCE... "Ma'am, just to let you know, by law you'll need to get a Texas state driver's license if you've moved here permanently. But don't worry--you've got some time to do that. You can check with the DMV and they'll be more than happy to get you right with the great state of Texas...."
 

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It's very irritating to have someone to blow cigarette smoke in your face. she could have said sure, and after putting it out, things would probably have went better. I think putting out your smoke would be a given in this situation.
and, being surrounded by blacks, I've found that the females are harder to reason with than males. hostile describes most of them.
 

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BUGEYE said:
It's very irritating to have someone to blow cigarette smoke in your face. she could have said sure, and after putting it out, things would probably have went better. I think putting out your smoke would be a given in this situation.
and, being surrounded by blacks, I've found that the females are harder to reason with than males. hostile describes most of them.

Hispanic women are the same way, especially if they are in any position of authority. They act like they wrote
the laws even when they are wrong about the law. DMV is a prime example of this, they are rude as **** to you.
Then sweet as pie to one of their own.
 

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uh. . .this woman was a nut case and was suicidal.
they've released photos of her wrists showing slash
marks healed and otherwise and her neck showing
the forensic evidence of a self-done "unassisted" hanging.
she should have stayed in Chicago and gotten mental
treatment instead of coming here to agitate and
play the race card. oh wait. . . .her family is playing
the race card in her stead.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ranger99 said:
Ugh... did you read the transcript of the stop?

****************************************************During the traffic stop that led to her arrest and, ultimately, her death in a Texas jail, Sandra Bland repeatedly questioned the decisions of state Trooper Brian Encinia and asserted rights she said Encinia was violating.A close look at the police car dashcam video that recorded the exchange shows her questions had merit: Encinia at every occasion escalates the tension. He tells Bland, a Black Lives Matter activist, she's under arrest before she has even left her car, shouts at her for moving after ordering her to move, refuses to answer questions about why she's being arrested and, out of the camera's view, apparently slams her to the ground. He gets testy with her -- "Are you done?" -- when she explains after he points out she seems irritated. And, contrary to a recent Supreme Court decision, he unconstitutionally extends the traffic stop, it appears, out of spite.The video also shows that Encina never actually ordered Bland to put out her cigarette, but rather asked her politely, to which she responded with a question. To which he answered with aggression.At times, the confrontation becomes chaotic, but a transcript shows Bland answering the trooper's questions, asserting her rights, and, eventually, directly challenging his treatment of her -- an evaluation shared by some police officers who've watched the video. The following exchange -- transcribed with the help of HuffPost's Matt Ramos and Dhyana Taylor -- comes after the dashcam video shows Encinia quickly driving toward the rear of Bland's car.

State Trooper Brian Encinia: Hello ma’am. We’re the Texas Highway Patrol and the reason for your stop is because you failed to signal the lane change. Do you have your driver’s license and registration with you? What’s wrong? How long have you been in Texas?
Sandra Bland: Got here just today.
Encinia: OK. Do you have a driver's license? (Pause) OK, where you headed to now? Give me a few minutes.
(Bland inaudible)
(Encinia returns to his car for several minutes, then approaches Bland again.)
Encinia: OK, ma'am. (Pause.) You OK?
Bland: I'm waiting on you. This is your job. I'm waiting on you. When're you going to let me go?
Encinia: I don't know, you seem very really irritated.
Bland: I am. I really am. I feel like it's crap what I'm getting a ticket for. I was getting out of your way. You were speeding up, tailing me, so I move over and you stop me. So yeah, I am a little irritated, but that doesn’t stop you from giving me a ticket, so [inaudible] ticket.
Encinia: Are you done?
Bland: You asked me what was wrong, now I told you.
Encinia: OK.
Bland: So now I'm done, yeah.
Encinia: You mind putting out your cigarette, please? If you don't mind?
Bland: I'm in my car, why do I have to put out my cigarette?
Encinia: Well you can step on out now.[/color]
Bland: I don’t have to step out of my car.
Encinia: Step out of the car.
Bland: Why am I ...
Encinia: Step out of the car!
Bland: No, you don’t have the right. No, you don't have the right.
Encinia: Step out of the car.
Bland: You do not have the right. You do not have the right to do this.
Encinia: I do have the right, now step out or I will remove you.
Bland: I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself. [crosstalk] I am getting removed for a failure to signal?
Encinia: Step out or I will remove you. I’m giving you a lawful order.
Get out of the car now or I’m going to remove you.
Bland: And I’m calling my lawyer.
Encinia: I’m going to yank you out of here. (Reaches inside the car.)
Bland: OK, you’re going to yank me out of my car? OK, alright.
Encinia (calling in backup): 2547.
Bland: Let’s do this.
Encinia: Yeah, we’re going to. (Grabs for Bland.)
Bland: Don’t touch me!
Encinia: Get out of the car!
Bland: Don’t touch me. Don't touch me! I’m not under arrest -- you don't have the right to take me out of the car.
Encinia: You are under arrest!
Bland: I’m under arrest? For what? For what? For what?
Encinia (to dispatch): 2547 county fm 1098 (inaudible) send me another unit. (To Bland) Get out of the car! Get out of the car now!
Bland: Why am I being apprehended? You're trying to give me a ticket for failure ...
Encinia: I said get out of the car!
Bland: Why am I being apprehended? You just opened my --
Encinia: I‘m giving you a lawful order. I’m going to drag you out of here.
Bland: So you’re threatening to drag me out of my own car?
Encinia: Get out of the car!
Bland: And then you’re going to [crosstalk] me?
Encinia: I will light you up! Get out! Now! (Draws stun gun and points it at Bland.)
Bland: Wow. Wow. (Bland exits car.)
Encinia: Get out. Now. Get out of the car!
Bland: For a failure to signal? You’re doing all of this for a failure to signal?
Encinia: Get over there.
Bland: Right. yeah, lets take this to court, let's do this.
Encinia: Go ahead.
Bland: For a failure to signal? Yup, for a failure to signal!
Encinia: Get off the phone!
Bland: (crosstalk)
Encinia: Get off the phone! Put your phone down!
Bland: I’m not on the phone. I have a right to record. This is my property. Sir?
Encinia: Put your phone down right now. Put your phone down!
(Bland slams phone down on her trunk.)
***************************************
the rest is at
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sandra-bland-arrest-transcript_55b03a88e4b0a9b94853b1f1
 

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Kevin said:
Ranger99 said:
Ugh... did you read the transcript of the stop?
nope. don't need or want to. seen the vid on the news 101.7 times.
if/when you flee/fight/grapple/lip off/ act stupid/ attack/ spit on a cop
count your blessings if you don't get beat half to death or killed.
if this woman had kept her yap shut she might be here today, that
and if her family had put her in a treatment center for whatever
mental issues she had that made her carve her wrists up like they were.
 

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She also had an unusually high level of marijuana in her system. yellowtail typically finds dope head losers to immortalize. He's a "birds of a feather" kinda guy who defends his own kind.
 

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Unless there are laws REQUIRING signals for changing lanes, the cop had no justifiable reason to stop her. I know of no state that has such a law. Even my LEO friends tell me that some of their number do enjoy pushing others around to see if they can provoke a conflict that would allow them to smash a reluctant citizen. I've asked them why they don't report the offenders; they say they have, to no avail.
 

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Here is a kernel of knowledge that I knew even as a teen. When pulled over comply with the Officer's demands....even if you think him wrong. Fighting it in court will get you much farther than trying to fight with the Officer! It's not rocket science and just plain common sense! However these days it is the trend to argue and get your face on the news, all the while screaming discrimination, for being challenged for doing what you freaking know is wrong in the first place!
 

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wncchester said:
Unless there are laws REQUIRING signals for changing lanes, the cop had no justifiable reason to stop her. I know of no state that has such a law. Even my LEO friends tell me that some of their number do enjoy pushing others around to see if they can provoke a conflict that would allow them to smash a reluctant citizen. I've asked them why they don't report the offenders; they say they have, to no avail.

Well winny, you need to investigate further. Just about EVERY state including Texas, has a "signal lane change" law. That's why all the states REQUIRE turn signals. So everyone else doesn't have to GUESS what your gonna do next.
 

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Dee, saying what I did, the way I did, WAS a form of my "investigating"; I knew that opening myself to indignant corrections would be more effective than simply asking.

It's been a LOOONG time since I was in Texas but signaling for a simple lane change didn't appear to be a law then. Nor anywhere else in the Southeast that I'm familiar with, aka "the South"! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
gene_225 said:
"Think self-preservation, rather than... rights..." True, but sad it has to be that way.
yes it is a grim reality. but as can be seen from a number of comments, some of our fellow citizens like it that way. Some are current or former cops, of a particular type... while others are simply ok with abuse so long as it happens to those people they think should be abused.
 

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Kevin said:
gene_225 said:
"Think self-preservation, rather than... rights..." True, but sad it has to be that way.
yes it is a grim reality. but as can be seen from a number of comments, some of our fellow citizens like it that way. Some are current or former cops, of a particular type... while others are simply ok with abuse so long as it happens to those people they think should be abused.

Classic yellowtail. Being a DS is what usually get you into trouble on a traffic stop, but there are exceptions. ::)
 
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