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Discussion Starter #1
IMHO, I can't believe Remington would end the Classic series one year before the 30-06 and 35 Remington 100th anniversery. I also think they need to put a longer barrel on their 504T HB To 1)better imitate their HB centerfire models for low cost or close range practice, 2)For better balance in metallic silhouett shooting like their Anschutz competitors. They need to follow the lead of the 541's that have a big loyal following with high used gun prices to prove it.
 

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Yes, I know. I have been watching these strange marketing moves made
by the boys in green for some time. The mistakes are far too numerious to mention, but for example look at how they entered the short magnum market. Wildcatters have proven that a .25 Rem short mag would actually
give us performance exceeding the 25-06 & not far from a .257 Wea. &
because it is so logical, they probably won't introduce it. Same goes for
the 6.5, which could steal some of the 6.5X284's thunder with target shooters & could be marketed as a great hunting round as well. But no,
they screwed up against Win. with the 7mm & .30 & now they are running
with their tail between their legs. Then they re-introduce the .350 Rem.
Mag. complete with the shot gun vent. rib for good measure. The .350 Rem. Mag. is a good round, but why not a 35 Short Mag. for at least a
little more vel. than a well loaded 35 Whe. we already have. Then they pull
a real dandy stunt and drop the Sendero, one of the best out of the box
rifles available for stand hunting & long range shooting/hunting. I am sure that Savage, Winchester & others can pick up that slack! And I agree with you for the reasons you stated among others, that the classic should not go. It appears to me that some bean counters who are not
hunters/shooters are probably making these calls. And yes, some of these
models may have not been making them money, but customers like me
who were buyings these models were also buying the high volume models.
I have been a loyal Rem. fan for 30+ years, but they are not going to mold me like clay, I will go elsewhere. It also appears to me that they are
after the police market harder, but the last time I checked, there are still
more non-police in our population than police. I hope that when the
ultimately free fall, that a strong, sportsman based company can buy them.
 

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Well, they must know what they're doing...otherwise they'd be out of business, right? Maybe the Classics aren't selling as well as they'd like. Maybe everyone talks about what they'd like to see Remington come out with as a Classic, but how many of those people buy the Classics?

I do agree that it is a shame they are ending the Classic on the .30-06's birthday. That is a load of crap :evil: . The thing about the 504THB, I really can't say much about that. "Low cost" IMO doesn't even touch Remington with the exception of the 870 line of shotguns. Every other gun in the catalog is $500 or above, which in my book is expensive. The Sendero deal...this was a weird year. They dropped those, the ADL line and replaced the synthetic stocked ones with an SPS rifle and removed the wood stocked ones completely and I think they might have removed something else...can't put my finger on it at the moment. But oh well...you're right sendero, we're free agents and we can purchase wherever and whenever...God bless the USA :grin: . :D
 

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Good Point Nomosendero

Right on with the 6.5 and the 350 Mag, better things could have been done. Good companys take a long time to go out of business because of bad manegment because of brand loyalty of the public, It will take time, Maybe real hunters and shooters that made Remington what it was will be put back in the drivers seat. Look, Smith and Wesson had a good management turnaround. Bean counters rule the world
 

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If you need an example of why what Rich says is right just look at the loyalty of all the people rushing to defend remington every time someone posts something negative. I've even seen people attack posters who claims to have had problems with Remington products. With that kind of entrenched support it would take decades for them to go under.
 

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I did not say in my previous post that I wanted them to go out. But it does
look like they could start a freefall. No, as I said before, I would hope that
someone will buy them that are business smart & sportsmen as well.

Concerning that statement that they must know what they are doing because they have been in business for a long time goes, businesses go
out every day that have been around for a long time. Remember, they
have been owned by several people. In my line of work (Industrial
Forklift & Material Handling Equipment), I see this first hand with many
large companies. This reminds me of one of my competetors, Clark Forklift who was Number 1 & by any measure appeared untouchable in the early 80's go bankrupt & have been recently bought by a Korean cap company. They may have 1-2% market share now.

In my early years, me and my family & friends here in Ar. were very
loyal to Rem., partly because of their ammo being made here. Alot of the
serious duck hunters were using 870's because they work & we used &
still to a great extent use Model 700's.

I don't think dropping the Sendero & other lines that JPSaxMan mentioned
can just be called a weird year. Who made it weird, us or Rem.?
But, like you say, this is America!
 

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You know I too think that the WSM really won out big time over the RSAM. Think they dropped the Classic at least one year too soon and dropped other rifles that I like! Although the SPS seem to be an improvement over the ADL - Just took me some time to get use to it!!!

This to me is more a mixed bag - Maybe more to the negative than positive but......

Does anyone know how they are really doing? I've heard it said they are making $$$ but anyone know the bottom line???
 

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Been a Rem fan for all my life. I do say this please make all the ultra mags and 375 h&h in a wood stock please. I am not a big sythetic stock fan. My question is will they start again (making them in wood stock) or not. :D
 

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I honestly think what Remington needs is more gunsmiths and machinists and far fewer lawyers and bean counters. At one time Remington was virtually run by hunters and bench rest affectianatos. A list of early benchrest experimenters and competitors reads like a list of Remington Custom Shop employees. These guys knew their stuff. Unfortunately they've all retired now, and their replacements aren't worth diddley, judging by the quality of todays Remingtons. Just one mans opinion. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal
 

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You both posted the same thing twice... :?
 

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I hope no one was tramatized by this terrible deed!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Well Mr. Smartone, on most sites that's considered SPAM and is usually deleted at will...but I'll be nice.

If you do it again I might have to lynch you though :)
 

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Well...GB must have taken care of it before I did or there was a mistake made on my part but I remember looking at this thread and I believe the other one was "Future for Remington Ultra Magnums" and Cal said the exact same thing about bean counters etc, then you responded the same way :?
 

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Little by little Remington is doing away with models that take the most labor and materials to produce. It is the lower end rifles and shotguns that everybody seeks first, then the higher priced ones after a few years if they can afford it. The popularity of the cheaper makes out there force Remington to cut costs to remain competitive. What Remington is missing out on is the fact that the cheaper guns aren't only inexpensive, they are accurate.

It isn't hard to see that the price of new rifles in the future may be in the area of $1000 and more if another round of inflation hits this economy and liability continues to soar.

Remington does what it does to survive in a very competitive market. That doesn't mean that they always make the correct decision when it comes to discontinuing models but they will produce what sells. Obviously the Classic had falling sales but that doesn't mean that Remington won't come out with a Commerative of some sort for the .30-06.

Face it, most people but not all want a rifle with no stamped metal parts or molded plastice pieces, they want quality and accuracy....then they want it for $250 or $329 with a scope and everything else. The same thing happened with the Auto makers and nobody listened to them either. Now it's the Firearm industrys' turn and yet after the economic history of other businesses people still buy cheap. Your next rifle purchase may turn out to be a Yugo.

The jury is still out on some gun makers and their manufacturing techniques and materials used. Only time will tell if buying cheap was the best way to go. There is an advantage to buying Remintons and Winchesters and others. Cheap doesn't mean durable.
 

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jvs
Good post,sir. In this competitive market, adjustments & cost cutting
measures have to be made. You mentioned this concerning auto's & I have observed this for 25 years in the fork lift industry. Sometimes, a
company will introduce a new product a little too quickly to compete with
lower priced but good products & fall on their face because the quality is not there. Examples with autos are the Chev. Vega, Ford Pinto & a few
other duds, trying to compete with small but good cars like the offerings
from Toyota & Nissan, who had merely refined products that they had
been using for years. The American Companies have made some big
time adjustments with their small cars, though maybe a little late for some of them, but some will survive. Cat, Hyster & Clark have gone through this & all 3 were reeling for years but 2 have pulled through with
very competitive but YET GOOD PRODUCTS.
And now we see the same thing in the gun industry. Remington introduced
I think what they call the 710, oh my. No doubt this was done to compete
with the Savage more than any other, but like the Vega & Pinto sadly
missed the mark. And like the Jap cars, Savage has offered their gun for
years & continue to refine it & at the same time leave a base model, the
Stevens.
But now, Rem. drops the ADL & leaves their lower end market vulnerable.
I have not priced the now lower priced Mod. 700, but I bet it is somewhat more than the ADL. Then they drop some of the higher end models that
some accuracy buffs look for. They offer several units in the custom shop,
but this can never be a big chunk of their market if they want to stay big.
Remington, like every one else in all industry, will have to learn how to be competitive with a good product. Ruger,Winchester, Tikka & others have
to play in the same arena, but they seem to be adjusting better than Rem.
Ammo & aftermarket supplies may Keep Rem. going & I hope so. Parts
kept the lift truck guys alive during their bad years, there is more profit
in parts than in the equipment. It shoulh be the same with ammo, but
to a lesser degree because you are not "locked in" the same way with ammo. Rem. just came out with a new cleaner & slightly less powerful
209 primer just for Muzzleloaders. This will sell like hot cakes! This is a
big deal, & yea they may sell for $5.00 per box, but the profit ratio will
be high & many, many thousand boxes will be sold. Things like this will
keep a company going & profitable & I hope it does.
Meanwhile, BIG GREEN, get your act together, we all benefit if you prosper.
 

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I get frustrated with Remington too. I forget the model number, but the new 350 magnum "guide gun" is an example of something that makes me scratch my head. A good caliber deserving of ressurection. A gorgeous retro style laminated stock. Then they top it off with a vent rib and a shark fin sight. Why the vent rib and shark fin sight. Is anyone glad the gun has them? There are better ways to accomplish open sights and pointability in a rifle.

I understand the need for an entry level rifle, but I think Savage (Stevens), Howa and Mossberg are much better for the money than Big Greens budget 710. Remington sells truckloads of the 710's, so it's kinda hard to say it is a blunder. Unless that purchaser passes on a Remington when he decides to upgrade based on his perception of the 710.

Most of you probably remember when OMC outboards were the most highly regarded in the industry. There are parallels between Remington and OMC from a business standpoint. It starts with their collective failure to listen to their customers.

I am not completely disenchanted with Remington, but I am loosing my faith and loyalty. They need to respond to their customer base. I think Ruger did a good job of listening. They got their barrel problems straightened out and are slowly regaining a reputation for better accuracy.

If we had the internet 20 years ago, I doubt Remington would stir near the controversy they do today. Other companies have evolved. Remington's attempts at evolution have been largely regarded as failures by the mainstream shooting public. Most recent evidence is their partnership with the Russian shotgun maker and the utterly horrible "Spartan" shotgun.
 
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