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REV 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

No more scripture… no more revelation… no more word of God… Heaven is sealed? That is not my belief. I believe the Bible prophesizes of more scripture etc to come in these latter days in preparation for the Second Coming. My intent in this post, however, is only to offer Howard W. Hunter’s discussion of the above verses:

Elder Howard W. Hunter
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
No Man Shall Add to or Take Away
Ensign, May 1981

Recently a young friend in the mission field wrote a letter to me regarding a question that had been asked of him concerning the concluding verses of the Bible and how they apply to the Book of Mormon. We remember that at the end of the book of Revelation, the last book of the Bible, the author, John, issues a warning and a curse upon any man who adds to or takes away from the book. Specifically, these are the words he wrote:
“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18–19.)
These verses of scripture have been cited repeatedly by those attempting to discredit the Book of Mormon, claiming that God’s revelation to man is closed. Nothing more is to be added and nothing is to be taken away. They assert that the Book of Mormon is an attempt to add to the words of the Bible. These claims were made when the Book of Mormon was first published and have continued to be made, and are made today. Is there any validity to such assertions?
The answer to this query is really very simple. A careful reading of the words makes it clear that the warning against adding to or taking away does not refer to the whole Bible or even to the New Testament, but to use John’s words, only to the words of “the book of this prophecy.” That is, the prophecy contained in the book of Revelation. This is substantiated by the fact that some of the books of the New Testament had not yet been written when John wrote the book of Revelation, and even those that had been written and were in existence at that time had not yet been gathered into one compilation.
The collection of writings consisting of the sixty-six books we know as the Bible were brought together and compiled into one volume long after John wrote the prophetic book that has been placed at the end of the collection. It is clear, therefore, that the terrible judgments pronounced upon those who add to the book could not possibly apply to the whole of the Bible or even to the New Testament, but only to the book of Revelation.
Secondly, the warning uses the words “the prophecy of this book” and also “the words of the book of this prophecy.” The word book in both instances is singular and could only refer to the book of prophecy written by John which is titled, in the King James Version, “The Revelation of St. John the Divine” and is often referred to as the Apocalypse—a Greek word which means revealed. Of necessity the word book would have been in the singular because when written it was not associated with any other book or books, and it was after many years and many ecclesiastical debates that it was added to the collection that became known as the new canon of scripture or the New Testament.
It is also interesting to note that John himself added to scripture after writing the book of Revelation, which is generally conceded to have been written while he was on the Isle of Patmos. It was long after John left Patmos that he wrote his first epistle. This fact standing alone would be sufficient to defeat the claim that revelation was closed and that man was enjoined from adding to scripture. This adds cumulative evidence that John had reference to the book of Revelation only.
In the Old Testament also are found similar vigorous denunciations and commands that there shall not be taken away or added to the words that were written. The first is found in Deuteronomy, written at the time Moses was exhorting Israel to live the law of the Lord. The Torah was oral law and had not been reduced to writing prior to the time of the codification of the law in Deuteronomy. Now that it had been reduced to writing by Moses prior to his death and assumed to be complete, Moses wrote:
“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deut. 4:2.)
Later in this same book of the law, Moses repeated the admonition in similar words. He said,
“What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.” (Deut. 12:32.)
In the minds of some, these admonitions in the Old Testament raise the same question as to the Book of Mormon being an attempted addition to scripture as does the injunction and warning at the end of the book of Revelation. In effect, these passages contain the same injunction as the one at the close of the Apocalypse; and if the same interpretation and argument was applied to them as is applied to the closing verses of the book of Revelation, there would be no scripture after the writings of Moses. Such an absurdity would result in discarding the greater part of the Old Testament and all of the books of the New Testament.
A careful reading of each of these admonitions makes it clear that man is not to make changes in the revelations of the Lord: man is not to add to or take from the words of God. There is no indication or intimation that God could not, or would not, add to or take from; nor would any reasonable person with a belief in the divine powers of God consciously believe that God would be so restricted. Without question he would have the right and power to give additional revelation for the guidance of his children in any age and to add additional scripture.
A study of the revelations of the Lord in holy writ confirms the fact that it is continuous revelation that guides prophets and the Church in any age. Were it not for continuous revelation, Noah would not have been prepared for the deluge that encompassed the earth. Abraham would not have been guided from Haran to Hebron, the Land of Promise. Continuous revelation led the children of Israel from bondage back to their promised land. Revelation through prophets guided missionary efforts, directed the rebuilding of Solomon’s temple, and denounced the infiltration of pagan practices among the Israelites.
Before the ascension of Christ, he promised the remaining eleven apostles, “lo, I am with you alway, Even unto the end of the world.” (Matt. 28:20.) Following his ascension, he guided the Church by revelation until the death of the Apostles and subsequent apostasy of the Church of Jesus Christ.
A distinctive sign of the last days that will precede the eventual second coming of the Lord was seen in vision by that same Apostle who recorded the book of Revelation. He said:
“I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.” (Rev. 14:6.)
The fact that John saw a messenger from God reveal anew a lost gospel negates the argument that further revelation could not be added to the Bible.
We testify to all the world that heavenly ministers have already appeared in our age, bringing authority from heaven and restoring truths lost through corrupted teachings and practices. God has spoken anew and continues to provide guidance for all his children through a living prophet today. We declare that he, as promised, is with his servants always and directs the affairs of his Church throughout the world. As in times past, revelation directs missionary labors, the building of temples, the calling of priesthood officers, and warns against the evils of society that may deny salvation to our Father’s children.
In a revelation to a modern oracle, Joseph Smith, the Lord said:
“For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.
“And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst.” (D&C 1:35–36.)
The Savior is reigning in the midst of the Saints today through continuous revelation. I testify that he is with his servants in this day and will be until the end of the earth. God is merciful and loves his children in all ages and has revealed himself to this time in history. Of this I solemnly testify, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
 

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Well now lets see what we have going on here.
It is an incorrect position to take when announcing that scripture is true and inerrant and in the same breath announcing that scripture is incorrect and errant-cannot be.
It is the onliest position one could/would, take if he were to want to add scripture, from another source of revelation. This however makes no sense as this is circular reasoning, as is the LDS position on God and scripture.
It is generally thought that Revelation is sealed with the Apostles, who are sealed and that John's other writing are from a previous time.
Even if you could show this time frame, you position on, to be correct it would not take away from the prophecy that scripture is sealed.
It is evident that the god of the LDS is not the one true GOD.
That said, the LDS have made a concerted effort, in the last few years, to come to a more mainstream view of God. Time will only tell if they will repent and confess that CHRIST JESUS is GOD, the God without beginning, birth or death.
Blessings
 

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I hate to disagree with you williamlayton but I don't think SelwayPacker at any time said the scripture was errant or incorrect. He said an interpretation of it is incorrect. I for one appreciate SelwayPacker's post in that it clearly explains some of Christ's doctrine. I am biased by the fact that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and know those words to be true. I don't know because my brain has reasoned it out but I know because the Holy Spirit has testified to my spirit and I can't deny it to be true. Now I've been all around the topics on this forum, and I know what has been said about Mormons - not much different that what I've heard my whole life. God loves us, so much that He sent His Son to pay for our sins. Jesus is the Christ and He continues to reveal His will, of this I have no doubt. Take this how you want but I don't begrudge you for your beliefs and I would expect the same in return.
 

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No more scripture-no more revelation-no more word of God-heaven is sealed? That is not my belief.
I would like to hear where in the Bible it says contrary to that.
If one is to point to the Old Testament I would care to see where it says that prophecy will never end, in the form and fashion of the biblical prophets.
I would agree with the assertion that false prophecy will never end.
Blessings
 

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No more Scripture

williamlayton said:
No more scripture-no more revelation-no more word of God-heaven is sealed? That is not my belief.
I would like to hear where in the Bible it says contrary to that.
If one is to point to the Old Testament I would care to see where it says that prophecy will never end, in the form and fashion of the biblical prophets.
I would agree with the assertion that false prophecy will never end.
Blessings
No more Scripture. That is very convenient. Without a second witness to the truth in the Bible the scripture in the Bible can be twisted to support any belief anyone wishes to think up. Confusion can go on forever. With a second witness the twisting comes to an end. If you read study and pray about The Bible, The Book of Mormon, and the relationship between the two you will find a second witness to the truth in the Bible.
 

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The bible and the 12 Apostles are their own witness, plus, the old testament.
It is interesting that two cults sprang up about the same time in history, each claiming too bring an apostate church back into TRUE scriptural accuracy. Both of these cults would/will/do deny the deity of Christ Jesus in direct opposition to the confession of the Apostles and Christ Jesus and warnings from scripture to not do so.
Both of these cults are in direct opposition to each and each have denied the other as being false.
Each would claim that since the third century the church has been, and, therefore; all believers have been unable to attain the salvation offered by Christ Jesus because of an inerrant belief system which calls for the confession/faith/belief of the deity of Christ Jesus and salvation by faith alone and NOT works.
The LDS and JW.
I would say that there has been a concerted effort within the LDS to become mainstream with historic Christianity and this move has caused a rebellion within the LDS causing many members to reform the church.
It is my hope and prayer this movement will continue and the LDS will confess Christ Jesus as God.
Blessings
 

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williamlayton said:
The bible and the 12 Apostles are their own witness, plus, the old testament.
It is interesting that two cults sprang up about the same time in history, each claiming too bring an apostate church back into TRUE scriptural accuracy. Both of these cults would/will/do deny the deity of Christ Jesus in direct opposition to the confession of the Apostles and Christ Jesus and warnings from scripture to not do so.
Both of these cults are in direct opposition to each and each have denied the other as being false.
Each would claim that since the third century the church has been, and, therefore; all believers have been unable to attain the salvation offered by Christ Jesus because of an inerrant belief system which calls for the confession/faith/belief of the deity of Christ Jesus and salvation by faith alone and NOT works.
The LDS and JW.
I would say that there has been a concerted effort within the LDS to become mainstream with historic Christianity and this move has caused a rebellion within the LDS causing many members to reform the church.
It is my hope and prayer this movement will continue and the LDS will confess Christ Jesus as God.
Blessings
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints IS His church. Christ IS the center of His church. No other people on earth worship Him as correctly as members of His church do. Listening to the words of His prophet will inspire anyone who hears them in faith.









First Presidency Message


A Testimony Vibrant and True
Ensign, August 2005

By President Gordon B. Hinckley



We often sing in our congregations a favorite hymn, "An Angel from on High," whose words were written more than a century and a half ago by Parley P. Pratt. 1 They represent his declaration of the miraculous coming forth of a remarkable book. Exactly 176 years ago this fall that book was first being set in type and run on a press in Palmyra, New York.

It is inspiring to learn how Parley Pratt came to know of the book about which he wrote the words of this hymn. In August of 1830, as a lay preacher, he was traveling from Ohio to eastern New York. At Newark, along the Erie Canal, he left the boat and walked 10 miles (16 km) into the country where he met a Baptist deacon by the name of Hamlin, who told him "of a book, a strange book, a VERY STRANGE BOOK! . . . This book, he said, purported to have been originally written on plates either of gold or brass, by a branch of the tribes of Israel; and to have been discovered and translated by a young man near Palmyra, in the State of New York, by the aid of visions, or the ministry of angels. I inquired of him how or where the book was to be obtained. He promised me the perusal of it, at his house the next day. . . . Next morning I called at his house, where, for the first time, my eyes beheld the 'BOOK OF MORMON'—that book of books . . . which was the principal means, in the hands of God, of directing the entire course of my future life.

"I opened it with eagerness, and read its title page. I then read the testimony of several witnesses in relation to the manner of its being found and translated. After this I commenced its contents by course. I read all day; eating was a burden, I had no desire for food; sleep was a burden when the night came, for I preferred reading to sleep.

"As I read, the spirit of the Lord was upon me, and I knew and comprehended that the book was true, as plainly and manifestly as a man comprehends and knows that he exists." 2

Parley Pratt was then 23 years of age. The reading of the Book of Mormon affected him so profoundly that he was soon baptized into the Church and became one of its most effective and powerful advocates. In the course of his ministry he traveled from coast to coast across what is now the United States, into Canada, and to England; he worked in the isles of the Pacific and was the first Latter-day Saint missionary to set foot on the soil of South America. In 1857, while serving a mission in Arkansas, he was shot in the back and killed by an assailant. He was buried in a rural area near the community of Alma, and today in that quiet place a large block of polished granite marks the site of his grave. Incised in its surface are the words of another of his great and prophetic hymns, setting forth his vision of the work in which he was engaged:

The morning breaks, the shadows flee;
Lo, Zion's standard is unfurled! . . .
The dawning of a brighter day
Majestic rises on the world.

The clouds of error disappear
Before the rays of truth divine; . . .
The glory bursting from afar
Wide o'er the nations soon will shine. 3

Parley Pratt's experience with the Book of Mormon was not unique. As the volumes of the first edition were circulated and read, strong men and women by the hundreds were so deeply touched that they gave up everything they owned, and in the years that followed not a few even gave their lives for the witness they carried in their hearts of the truth of this remarkable volume.

Today, a century and three-quarters after its first publication, the Book of Mormon is more widely read than at any time in its history. Whereas there were 5,000 copies in that first edition, about 5,000,000 are currently distributed each year, and the book or selections from the book are available in 106 languages.

Its appeal is as timeless as truth, as universal as mankind. It is the only book that contains within its covers a promise that by divine power the reader may know with certainty of its truth.

Its origin is miraculous; when the story of that origin is first told to one unfamiliar with it, it is almost unbelievable. But the book is here to be felt and handled and read. No one can dispute its presence. All efforts to account for its origin, other than the account given by Joseph Smith, have been shown to lack substance. It is a record of ancient America. It is a scripture of the New World, as certainly as the Bible is the scripture of the Old. Each of these volumes of scripture speaks of the other. Each carries with it the spirit of inspiration, the power to convince and to convert. Together they become two witnesses, hand in hand, that Jesus is the Christ, the resurrected and living Son of the living God.

The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today's society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.

I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.

No other written testament so clearly illustrates the fact that when men and nations walk in the fear of God and in obedience to His commandments, they prosper and grow, but when they disregard Him and His word, there comes a decay that, unless arrested by righteousness, leads to impotence and death. The Book of Mormon is an affirmation of the Old Testament proverb: "Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people" (Proverbs 14:34).

The God of heaven spoke to these people of the Americas through prophets, telling them where true security could be found: "Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ" (Ether 2:12).

While the Book of Mormon speaks with power to the issues that affect our modern society, the great and stirring burden of its message is a testimony, vibrant and true, that Jesus is the Christ, the promised Messiah, He who walked the dusty roads of Palestine healing the sick and teaching the doctrines of salvation; who died upon the cross of Calvary; who on the third day came forth from the tomb, appearing to many. Prior to His final Ascension, He visited the people of this Western Hemisphere, concerning whom He earlier had said, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16).

For centuries the Bible stood alone as a written testimony of the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. Now, at its side, stands a second and powerful witness which has come forth "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations" (Book of Mormon title page).

As I indicated earlier, at this season exactly 176 years ago the first edition of the Book of Mormon, which had been translated "by the gift and power of God" (Book of Mormon title page) was being set in type and run on a small press in Palmyra, New York. Its publication preceded and was a forerunner to the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which took place on April 6, 1830.

We studied the Book of Mormon in Sunday School this past year. Nonetheless I offer a challenge to members of the Church throughout the world and to our friends everywhere to read or reread the Book of Mormon. If you will read a bit more than one and one-half chapters a day, you will be able to finish the book before the end of this year. Very near the end of its 239 chapters, you will find a challenge issued by the prophet Moroni as he completed his record nearly 16 centuries ago. Said he:

"And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust? . . .

"And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true" (Moroni 10:27, 29).

Without reservation I promise you that if each of you will observe this simple program, regardless of how many times you previously may have read the Book of Mormon, there will come into your lives and into your homes an added measure of the Spirit of the Lord, a strengthened resolution to walk in obedience to His commandments, and a stronger testimony of the living reality of the Son of God.


Notes

1. See Hymns, no. 13.
2. Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, ed. Parley P. Pratt Jr. (1938), 36--37.
3. "The Morning Breaks," Hymns, no. 1.
 

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Without a doubt I would deny such.
It is by faith alone in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, Messiah. Savior, the Living God that one inherits, without merit, life eternal with God in heaven.
Read the bible, without commentary.
Most Mormon scholars there is contradiction between the three books you refrence.
Blessings
 

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williamlayton said:
Without a doubt I would deny such.
It is by faith alone in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, Messiah. Savior, the Living God that one inherits, without merit, life eternal with God in heaven.
Read the bible, without commentary.
Most Mormon scholars there is contradiction between the three books you refrence.
Blessings
Did you even take the time to read my last post? Have you read the Book of Mormon and prayed about how the Bible and the Book of Mormon interact with each other. What contradictions are you taking about? You have some scripture and verse to back this up? Have you taken the time to study for yourself or just take someone elses word for it. Am I talking to William Layton or some preacher in Texas? I'll send you a copy of the Book of Mormon for nothing more than an address.
 

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Lee S. Forsberg said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints IS His church.
In order for this statement to be true, you need to show an unbroken line of succession to the Apostles and the original church because Christ said that the church which He was establishing would stand up to the Jaws of **** -- meaning that it would last forever and never falter when it came to matters of faith.
 

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williamlayton said:
No more scripture-no more revelation-no more word of God-heaven is sealed? That is not my belief.
I would like to hear where in the Bible it says contrary to that.
If one is to point to the Old Testament I would care to see where it says that prophecy will never end, in the form and fashion of the biblical prophets.
Recall that the Bible was not wriiten as one complete work but as dozens of different works placed together centuries after they were originally written. When the Apostle John says in Rev 22:18-19 ... For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. ... I believe that he is making reference to the book of revelation that he is writing snce the bible did not yet exist as one complete work.

Additionally, recall that Hebrews 13:8 tells us that God does not change. God has revealed [sp] Himself to mankind since the beginning of creation. Even when people rejected His love, He continued to reveal Himself. If God does not change, as scripture tells us, then there is no reason to believe that God would stop revealing Himself to mankind.

That said, we must always guard against false prophets and any 'new' revelations must be put to the test. The Book of Mormon, has been put to such a test and has bee found lacking. For example, after the cataclysmic last battle fought between the Nephites and Lamanites, there was no one left to clean up the mess. Hundreds of thousands of men and beasts allegedly perished in that battle, and the ground was strewn with weapons and armor.

Keep in mind that A.D. 421 is just yesterday in archaeological terms. It should be easy to locate and retrieve copious evidence of such a battle, and there hasn’t been enough time for the weapons and armor to turn to dust. The Bible tells of similar battles that have been documented by archaeology, battles which took place long before A.D. 421.

The fact of the matter is that no scientist, Mormon or otherwise, has been able to find anything to substantiate that such a great battle took place. A more serious problem for the Book of Mormon which nobody has ever been able to explain is how errors from the 1611 King James Version show up in the Book of Mormon when Smith claimed to have translated it from ancient golden plates?
 

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Sir Knight said:
Lee S. Forsberg said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints IS His church.
In order for this statement to be true, you need to show an unbroken line of succession to the Apostles and the original church because Christ said that the church which He was establishing would stand up to the Jaws of **** -- meaning that it would last forever and never falter when it came to matters of faith.
The LDS church has an unbroken line of succession to the Apostles and the original curch. We have it through restoration, as explained before.
 

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If it was RESTORED, that means that it was lost. If it was lost, then that means that the jaws of **** prevailed against Christ's Church. If the jaws of **** prevailed against Christ's Church, that means that Christ was wrong about the jaws of **** never prevailing against His Church. If Christ was wrong about one thing, then He could be wrong about other promises that He made. If other promises MIGHT be incorrect, then that places all of Christianity into doubt.

For the above reasons, I, personally, can not accept the claim that the LDS church has an unbroken line of succession to the Apostles through restoration.
 

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Sir Knight said:
If it was RESTORED, that means that it was lost. If it was lost, then that means that the jaws of **** prevailed against Christ's Church. If the jaws of **** prevailed against Christ's Church, that means that Christ was wrong about the jaws of **** never prevailing against His Church. If Christ was wrong about one thing, then He could be wrong about other promises that He made. If other promises MIGHT be incorrect, then that places all of Christianity into doubt.

For the above reasons, I, personally, can not accept the claim that the LDS church has an unbroken line of succession to the Apostles through restoration.
Through the RESTORATION the "jaws of ****" have not prevailed against His church. Through the RESTORATION His church is back and organized just as it was when He was on earth. The Priesthood has been RESTORED as explained earlier.
Through THE RESTORATION, His Church, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS has an unbroken line of succession to the Apostles.
 

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The LDS can only proclaim a line of secession if the prophecy proclaimed is in exact agreement with the proclamations made by Christ Jesus' apostles. This would be to include the confessions of Thomas, John, Paul and Peter not to mention Christ himself, which is really the only confession needed, the rest standing in agreement with him.
That confession is that Christ is Lord, God, Savior, Messiah-God with us, Son of God, son of man.
The LDS would deny such as would JW and proclaim Christ Jesus to be less than God, the God of all creation.
There is a concerted effort within the LDS to change this stance and I pray this group prevails. That said those within the LDS which do proclaim Christ Jesus to be the living God are, regardless of the stance of the leadership, are in a correct relationship with the plan of God.
The fact is the LDS proclaim a different God than the scriptures.
Prophets must be correct on all accounts or they are false prophets.
Study the scriptures and, as scholars within the LDS will admit, you will find there are direct contradictions by JS and others with their prophecies.
It is your call.
Blessings
 

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It never ceases to amaze me how many people outside my own religion seem to know it better than I do. (Note my sarcastic tone) Those looking for scientific proof or evidence are on the wrong path, Christ has always dealt with the hearts of men, not their brains. Read the Book of Mormon and pray with sincerity to know that it is true, - your heart will tell you something that your brain doesn't know.
 

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Christ told us to study the scriptures to know the truth/defend the truth/to be on guard against those who would pervert the truth. Commonly this is called apologetics, today.
Scripture bears witness of scripture, which bears witness of the one who is the author, God.
The LDS perverts scripture by their own prophecy and by their own witness.
The Lord God, Christ Jesus, said there would be many who would come in perversion of his testimony and to be on guard against these as they WOULD lead many astray. This is also confirmed by the teachings of Christs' apostles.
There is much more to say about this but, be aware of the spirit who would have you believe a NEW account which was not taught by God and the scriptures.
It takes very little investigation to know more about the LDS than most within this organization would care to be brought to LIGHT.
The Church has defended the truth against many, in history, who came for their own glory, and, by the same token, of their gods glory. Be aware of this in your prayers.
Blessings
 

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williamlayton said:
The LDS can only proclaim a line of secession if the prophecy proclaimed is in exact agreement with the proclamations made by Christ Jesus' apostles. This would be to include the confessions of Thomas, John, Paul and Peter not to mention Christ himself, which is really the only confession needed, the rest standing in agreement with him.
That confession is that Christ is Lord, God, Savior, Messiah-God with us, Son of God, son of man.
The LDS would deny such as would JW and proclaim Christ Jesus to be less than God, the God of all creation.
There is a concerted effort within the LDS to change this stance and I pray this group prevails. That said those within the LDS which do proclaim Christ Jesus to be the living God are, regardless of the stance of the leadership, are in a correct relationship with the plan of God.
The fact is the LDS proclaim a different God than the scriptures.
Prophets must be correct on all accounts or they are false prophets.
Study the scriptures and, as scholars within the LDS will admit, you will find there are direct contradictions by JS and others with their prophecies.
It is your call.
Blessings
What Bible do you use? The King James I hope. We have been through all of this before individualy and as a church. The truth is always under fire. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christ's church. Christ is the Son of The Living God and the head of His Church.
I'm sure you and others can dig up something that looks like a contradiction because the LDS doctrine more pure than you like. Like the Jews in Christs time who were blinded by always looking beyond the mark.
 

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Lee S. Forsberg said:
Through the RESTORATION the "jaws of ****" have not prevailed against His church. Through the RESTORATION His church is back and organized just as it was when He was on earth. The Priesthood has been RESTORED as explained earlier.
Through THE RESTORATION, His Church, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS has an unbroken line of succession to the Apostles.
I don't know how else to say this. Maybe someone who understands the point that I am trying to make can chime in but ... if something needed to be restored, then that means that it had to be lost. If it wasn't lost, there would be no need for it to be restored. If it was lost, then the gates of **** pevailed over Chirst's Church invalidating His claim that THAT would never happen.

jpuke said:
It never ceases to amaze me how many people outside my own religion seem to know it better than I do. (Note my sarcastic tone) Those looking for scientific proof or evidence are on the wrong path, Christ has always dealt with the hearts of men, not their brains. Read the Book of Mormon and pray with sincerity to know that it is true, - your heart will tell you something that your brain doesn't know.
But the Bible is a verifiable historical record in addition to being a religious document. Archeologists have found many ruins because of info found in the Bible. In addition names, dates and other historical facts from the Bible have been and still are used to verify other historical events.

The fact is that no city, person, piece of writing, or anything else specific to the Book of Mormon peoples in the America's has ever been found. How is it that these people were able to produce a 600+ page work of scripture, yet we have never found one piece of writing from anyone in their entire civilization apart from the Book of Mormon itself? It's not as if they're not looking. The difference here between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is staggering.
 

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Sir Knight;
Question, not a debate...I could not recall the phrase "jaws of ****" being in the Bible..my concordance doesn't find it either.
Perhaps some versions translate "gates" as"jaws" (Matt 16:18)...I can see that the meaning would easily be the same..

I do believe that the correct translation of the Bible has many more than two witnesses.
The translators in many cases have gone back to the earliest ms. they can obtain ...and all reputable translating boards come up with the same essential information....that there is no book equal to, adding to or supercedeing the Bible...

I live about 70 miles from Hill Cumorah and have passed by there a number of times...a rather pretty building on top of that hill.

We read about the battle of Jericho, the battles at Thermoplaye, Teutoberger Wald, Hastings, Tours etc., etc.
Archaeologists have found these sites and unearthed thousands of artifacts proving each event.
The Book of Mormon tells of a great battle that has taken place between armies of many thousands there just south of today's Lake Ontario...curiously, no such artifacts have been found while the "Hill Cumorah pageant" depicts soldiers dressed in full Roman style armor.

How could this be ?

I have no angst toward JCLDS folks. Their church has a great family program and generally produces fine citizens...but I must agree with William ...

God is a God of "free will", so I do respect a man's free will to choose to worship as he sees fit...
 
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