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Discussion Starter #1
Here is a reply to a comment I made on another forum.
I only post it here to set other views and thoughts.
Not to start a war. I look forward to thoughts and comments of my peers.
Please no one take this personally. I did not make the comment about the Catholic church.



Correction, (name deleted by me), "Babylon the Great" is the world empire of false religion, of which the Catholic church is a major part.(name deleted).

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My reply:

That statement coincides with my amature sutdies of Christian history.
Christianity has strayed very far from what was said and intended in the New Testiment.
Almost ALL Christian denominations are tied directly to the Catholic system of belief.
The first recognized and organized church system was the RCC tied directly with a political state.

A very brief and basic historical account:
30-70AD) The time of Jesus and the Apostles.
The death and resurrection of Christ.
The birth of the Christian faith and gospel of grace is preached.
70-312 AD) The age of Catholic Christainity.
The spread of the Christian faith.
Early heresies sprouted; the first chruch councils and cannonizing of scripture.
312-590 AD)Constatine declares Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
(this means that Christianity has become adopted by a POLITICAL entity.)
Christianity beomes a faith for the masses: start of Monasticism.

Christianity is inextricably linked to HISTORY.
One simply cannot fully or truthfully understand today's Christian faith without knowledge of Christian history.

Rome played a key part in the spread of Christianity. Why?
Because all roads led to Rome. Rome was an organized political state with a working infrastructure.
The Emporer Constantine pronounced Christianity the offical faith of the Roman Empire(not just Rome).
Because the Roman Empire was a pagan state, with many gods, this led to conflict with established Pagan customs.
Because of these conflicts with Roman pagans, who were ORDERED to become Christian the Emporer Constantine became involved in doctrinal disputes.
A political leader became the director of the new religion and had to reoncile Pagan traditions with his new religion. Pagan customs, traditions, and culture a thousand years old.
Being a dictator Constantine ORDERED what was to be believed or not believed.
Consantine moved the capital of the Christian church to Rome and established himself as
poltical head of the Church.

So there you have it. History teaches that Constantine established what we call the "church".
Constantine also established what was to be cannon and what was not.
Since the vast majority of citizens of the vast Roman Empire were Pagan, Constantine had to reconcile Pagan customs and beliefs with the new STATE religion.
He accomplished by blending Christianity with Pagaism.
What we call Christianity today is a crafty blend of pagam customs, traditions, and symbols mixed with the gospel as pronounced cannon by Constantine and his new Chruch order.
Constantines radical outward change in the church was really the fall of the church from apostolic purity to a new direction. A direction establsihed 2000 years ago complete with pagan customs, traditions and culture.
Babylon the Great IS worldwide Christianity.

History you see.
You cannot understand real Christiany without studying the history of the Christian religion.
Then each, according to his conscience, must sort out the "wheat from the chaff".
That is the hard part. What do you want to do?
See the truth? Then study, pray, and be willing to accept the facts as you find them.
Satan did not waste a second corrupting what Jesus did and said.
Not one second.
You can damn me all you want, but you can't change the Truth.
 

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jigger,you can't start in the middle of a premise you have to go back to the beginning of the Monothistic God-Zorasters and Magi and they came about because that is where Abraham picked up the idea on his sojurn from Er to present day Iraq/syria.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
IntrepidWizard said:
jigger,you can't start in the middle of a premise you have to go back to the beginning of the Monothistic God-Zorasters and Magi and they came about because that is where Abraham picked up the idea on his sojurn from Er to present day Iraq/syria.
IncredibleWiz:
O.K. I'll bite. Please support your statement.
I don't doubt your statement, I'd just like to research it a bit as an interesting point.

I started with the CHRISTIAN religious movement, not the Hebrew religion.
And that happens to be in the middle of what we call the Bible.
Going all the way back to the begining is beyound the scope of the comments about Babylon the Great.
I still want you to point me in the right direction to dig up the Abraham/montheistic thing.
Thanks :grin: .
 

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You brought up Babylon now research the era of Abraham.
 

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Actually the roots of religion go back to "In the beginning". Man did not make it up though satan and others have tried to imitate it.
Blessings
 

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That statement coincides with my amature sutdies of Christian history.
Christianity has strayed very far from what was said and intended in the New Testiment.
Almost ALL Christian denominations are tied directly to the Catholic system of belief.
The first recognized and organized church system was the RCC tied directly with a political state.

A very brief and basic historical account:
30-70AD) The time of Jesus and the Apostles.
The death and resurrection of Christ.
The birth of the Christian faith and gospel of grace is preached.
70-312 AD) The age of Catholic Christainity.
The spread of the Christian faith.
Early heresies sprouted; the first chruch councils and cannonizing of scripture.
312-590 AD)Constatine declares Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
(this means that Christianity has become adopted by a POLITICAL entity.)
Christianity beomes a faith for the masses: start of Monasticism.

Christianity is inextricably linked to HISTORY.
One simply cannot fully or truthfully understand today's Christian faith without knowledge of Christian history.

Rome played a key part in the spread of Christianity. Why?
Because all roads led to Rome. Rome was an organized political state with a working infrastructure.
The Emporer Constantine pronounced Christianity the offical faith of the Roman Empire(not just Rome).
Because the Roman Empire was a pagan state, with many gods, this led to conflict with established Pagan customs.
Because of these conflicts with Roman pagans, who were ORDERED to become Christian the Emporer Constantine became involved in doctrinal disputes.
A political leader became the director of the new religion and had to reoncile Pagan traditions with his new religion. Pagan customs, traditions, and culture a thousand years old.
Being a dictator Constantine ORDERED what was to be believed or not believed.
Consantine moved the capital of the Christian church to Rome and established himself as
poltical head of the Church.

So there you have it. History teaches that Constantine established what we call the "church".
Constantine also established what was to be cannon and what was not.
Since the vast majority of citizens of the vast Roman Empire were Pagan, Constantine had to reconcile Pagan customs and beliefs with the new STATE religion.
He accomplished by blending Christianity with Pagaism.
What we call Christianity today is a crafty blend of pagam customs, traditions, and symbols mixed with the gospel as pronounced cannon by Constantine and his new Chruch order.
Constantines radical outward change in the church was really the fall of the church from apostolic purity to a new direction. A direction establsihed 2000 years ago complete with pagan customs, traditions and culture.
Babylon the Great IS worldwide Christianity.

History you see.
You cannot understand real Christiany without studying the history of the Christian religion.
Then each, according to his conscience, must sort out the "wheat from the chaff".
That is the hard part. What do you want to do?
See the truth? Then study, pray, and be willing to accept the facts as you find them.
Satan did not waste a second corrupting what Jesus did and said.
Not one second.
You can damn me all you want, but you can't change the Truth.
WHAT?!?!?! What are you insinuating... that there WAS an APOSTASY? That the church had "fallen away" from the truths taught by the apostles?

2 Thess. 2: 1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3. Let no man deceive you by any means : for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed. the son of perdition; 4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.... 11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12. That they all might be damned who believe not the truth. but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

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In order to find the "Roots of Christianity" one has to accept history and its limitations.

Let us begin with the numerous Christian sects that populate the world today. Historically all of these come from the original "Church of Rome" that was established in 325 CE. Before that time it was considered a rogue cousin of Judaism. In the years following the death of the "Christ" in about 33-35 CE the religion was considered a new sect of judaism. So the direct roots of Christianity are found in Judaism.
The roots of Judaism are a little more difficult to follow but if you accept that Abraham is the father of the Jewish nation, as it is listed in the holy texts of that religion, then it is of interest to note that Abraham, when he was called Abram, came from a city called Ur. Ur is a city that existed from 2800 BCE to about 400 BCE. In the period before 1000BCE, 200 years after the inception of Judaism, it was in a land called Sumer. Sumer was a pagan, polytheistic culture with a richly religous culture. They were also the inventors of the written language. The first stories of creation, destruction and the rebirth of human culture come to us from these writings in Sumer. They are close to, close enough to be the origin of, the biblical stories of creation, the great flood, and the recovery of that flood. So, the roots of Judaism seem to be in the polytheistic, pagan culture of Sumer. As a matter of fact there are many instances in the holy texts that show that the people of Judaism returned often to their polytheistic ways and had to be reminded that their God was a jealous god who demanded,"Put no other gods before me".
Since there is no written record that precedes the records of Sumer it is only possible to say the the roots of Christianity come from polytheistic paganism through Judaism. As a side note, the final texts of Judaism were completed for the third time in 95 CE, about 60 years after the death of the "Christ".

PaulS
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Paul:
Good post full of interesting facts and speculation.
I felt/feel the same as you, have read the same information.
Of late I made a decision to simply study the Christian Bible and practice a little faith.
Seemed like a good idea at the time.
Still does.
Adimittidly the stories of creation, flood, origins of tribes, the 'jealous' got that seems to have changed personas several times are rather sophomoric and it takes blind faith to swallow that that.
So what?
It's somehow comforting to me right now.
My intellectual 'self' rebels but I want to simply believe.
Works for me.
 

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Pauls has it pretty good, I, however; put more faith in the words written than he or, at least, what appears to be his take on the subject.
Jewish history was pretty much oral until Moses compiled the text of the first five documents of scripture.
I do not see God change, in any respect, as do you Jaeger. He has had a plan revealed by Him from page one and he has stayed the course, and will until he completes it.
Christianity has its roots in judaism, the scripture says we are grafted into that root. The Catholic Church has it's roots in the Apostles and Christ Jesus, and their teachings and apologetics.
I can find no division or contradiction in the scriptures.
It is Evidence that demands a verdict.
Blessings
 

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jeager106 said:
Yup. Sorry but it's true.
And it ain't stopped falling yet.
Didn't Christ say that His church would stand up to the gates of ****? If Christianity has fallen away, then that would make Christ's promises false. If those promises are false, then other statements in the bible could also be false -- including all statements and proofs regarding "Babylon the Great".

By discrediting Christianity, you discredit the bible and by discrediting the bible, you just discredited your entire arguement.
 

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Roots of Christianity???

How about "In the beginning God...........".
It's been His plan from the git go.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Qtip said:
Roots of Christianity???

How about "In the beginning God...........".
It's been His plan from the git go.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!
Tip:



Works for me! Good 'nuff for me!
 

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:cb2: A couple of mistakes in jeager106 first post:

First, Constantine didn't make Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. He simply made it a legal religion. It was Emperor Theodosius who make it the official religion after Constantine.

Second, Constantine moved the capital from Rome to Byzantium, and renamed it Constantinople. It was to be a "New Rome." Old Rome was full of pagan temples and gods, and he wanted a new capital that would be free of pagan influences. You make it sound like he couldn't wait to add paganism to Christianity. If he wanted to do that, he could have just stayed in Rome where he was.

Third, The Council of Nicea, called by Constantine, was over the heresy being taught by Arius of Alexandria that Jesus was a created being, and not of the same essence as God. Jesus Christ was neither eternal, nor omnipotent. Greater than man, less than God. The resulting controversy caused riots in the streets. Constantine could not let this disorder continue. He thought the division of the church was worse than war. He didn't even understand the issue when he called the Council. He thought is was just an argument over the interpretation of a few words. After he spoke briefly at the beginning of the Council, he left and allowed the clergy to work it out. The result of the Council was that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were **** ousian meaning one God in three persons. They were of the same essence, or substance. This is quite clear in the Nicene Creed that they came up with.

It is true that different church councils have attempted to "Christianize" different pagan holidays. It was decided to celebrate the birth of Christ during the feast of the Winter solstice. The result was Christmas. Since it was tradition to celebrate the fact that days were getting longer, and Spring would be here soon, make it a Christian celebration and focus on Christ instead of just eating and having a great time. They also tried to make the Summer solstice the celebration of the birth of John the Baptist. That one kinda fizzled.

I do believe you give the "dictator Constantine" too much credit. He was no great theologian, nor did he "dictate" what was, or was not, to be believed. He left theology to the theologians. Due to some of his advisors, he had some bishops bannished, but later had them brought back again when told to do so by other advisors. His own misconception of theology caused him to wait until he was on his deathbed to be baptized.

You said, "You can damn me all you want, but you can't change the Truth." I suggest you do a little more historical research and get your facts straight before you start spouting off what is supposed to be "Truth." Don't manipulate evidence to reach the conclusion you want. It just ain't honest. Nor Christian!
 

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Old Griz,

Don't get too down on jeager. He has gone through a big change of heart recently and has buried himself in God's Word for a while. I haven't seen him post here or at HA much at all lately. Just keep him in prayer.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
 

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It could be argued that if the written word is to be believed then Christianity began in Ur. Ur is the city that Abram (Abraham) came from and it is also one of the oldest "true" cities in the world. It was located in the southern valley between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in a country we call Sumer. The Sumerians had the first written language and it pre-dates Hebrew by 2000 years. It is the origin of the flood story, and many other stories in the old testament. Why not? the father of the Hebrew Nation was born there and practiced the poly-theistic religion of the times. It wasn't until much later that the Jews became monotheistic.
Whether this is what I believe or not has nothing to do with the historical facts. You can look up the "Epic of Gilgamesh" and the land called "Sumer" with a simple Google search and find all kinds of university sites that contain information about the first "civilized" society on earth because they are still in the process of transcribing the clay tablets and will be far into the future.
This is, after all, the "Non Bible Study Religion Topics"
Blessings all!
PaulS
 

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Paul,Abe carried with him the Zoaratarist believe in a single God and they were the "Magi"that came to Christ's birth.Also Abe carried the Code of Hammurabi besides the Hymn of Gilgamisth so from Abe we begin the story of Christianity,down through Judism.
 
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