[butlerford45]

Scout Rifle?

I saw my first scout rifle two days ago, looks like a marlin 336 with an 18 inch barrel chambered for 47/70. The one I saw was on older gun that was not ported. Has to be one of the ugliest guns I've ever seen, it looked......well, deformed! Some say they are the handiest brush gun ever invented, but I'm gonna hafta take their word for it.

Didn't do much for answering your question though, did it? :grin:

 

[Hud]

Scout Rifle?

The scout rifle idea was invented by Col Jeff Cooper. If you put his name in your search engine it should come up with something. Sako I think makes one, and possibly Savage. The Gibbs Rifle Co. also make one in .308 on a lee enfield action.

They are usually bolts, but can be a lever action also. They are a short rifle in a short action caliber such as the 308. The scope is low powered (2x) and mounted forward of the action so that you can keep both eyes open. This also allows the action to be reloaded by a stripper clip and makes the rifle easier to carry at the balance point. A peep sight is normally used as a back up.

The rifle is of the type needed that would be most useful to a forward scout. Not nessisarily a point man, but a soldier out ahead reporting back. The rifle is used to get you out of trouble, whether the trouble is close or far.

Col. Cooper can explain it much better than I.

Hud

 

[butlerford45]

Scout Rifle?

I got the wrong gun!! What I saw was a "Guide" gun.

 

[Rocky]

Guide Guns

Guide guns are great. The orginal Guide Guns from Jim West of Wild West Guns in Anchorage, Alaska are grand. He's been making them for many years - long before Marlin got into the Guide Gun act. Wild West Guns puts out about the best deal going for top-notch lever gun. Pricey, but worth it. I really like their take down Co-Pilot. If it weren't for the blast enhancers on the end of the barrels of the Marlin Guide Guns, they would be really nice too, even though they shamelessly plagiarized the concept (and that of the .450 cartridge) from Wild West Guns. My Marlin is an old straight stock 1895. The barrel was bobbed to 16 1/2 inches a long, long time ago by an old Alaskan sourdough. I picked it up and carried it in the off season when I lived up there. Light, short and handy enough to always have with you - a good sling makes all the difference. Much better to have onhand than any pistol if ever needed.

Rocky

 

[Hud]

Scout Rifle?

Steyr!!!!! I meant Steyr makes the scout rifle, not Sako.

In the latest Guns & Ammo Mr Cooper has a couple articles, but not about his scout.

There is also a article on the Marlin Guide Gun.


Hud

 

[Yanqui]

Scout Rifle?

There seems to be a great deal of confusion out there about the Scout Rifle concept. I guess the problem lies with "Scout." What kind of Scout are we talking about?

I asked basically the same question at this website. I figured why not ask the experts. http://www.paratrooper.net/aotw/commo/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5024&whichpage=1 The idea was brainstormed and a clear conclusion was decided. A "TRUE" Scout Rifle for today's military is the M-4. It is carried by Cav Scouts in Scout/Sniper squads. Strangely the Steyr Scout Rifle is not used. Why? Because the Scout Rifle by Jeff Cooper is a General Purpose Rifle also known as a Hunting Rifle. But that not to say that it can not be used for military purposes. But then again so can my Winchester 94 Wrangler or any other firearm out there. The Apache Scouts for our Cavalry in the 1880's carried the 1873 Springfield Cavalry Carbine. The baddest "Scouts" ever.

Here are some more websites on the Scout Rifle. Read them carefully and come to your own conclusion.
http://remtek.com/arms/steyr/scout/scout.htm
http://www.donath.org/Rants/ScoutRifleTaxonomy/
http://www.steyrscout.org/
http://www.beast-enterprises.com/jeffscout.html
http://www.donath.org/Rants/ScoutRifleTaxonomy/
http://pw1.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutconference.html
http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/froghome.htm
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/froghome.htm
http://www.scoutman308.com/
http://home.earthlink.net/~hwsportsman/CheapScout.html
http://pw1.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutrifle.html

http://www.beast-enterprises.com/rebutscout.html

The Scout rifle set up is neither an ideal sniper weapon due to the low power scope and limited field of view associated with an extended eye relief optics plus the light and short barrel nor is it an ideal weapon for close in, flash fire fight against a numerically superior opponent. At best it is an expensive eye-catching big game hunting rifle in rough terrain due to its light weight. Is it my choice to pack for hunting trip??? I don't see why a Remington Model 7 (6 1/4 lbs) with synthetic stock and a conventional 3-9x40 scope cannot outperform a Scout rifle for one third of the price. That is unless I want something out of the ordinary for conversation around campfires.

I have a "Lever Scout." It is a Winchester 94 Wrangler in 30-30 with a Leopold M8 Scout Scope. But I guess the Scout Rifle snobs will call my Lever Scout a "psuedo scout." But then the Marine and Army Sniper/Scouts carry the "True" Scout Rifles. They are all different.
http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/weapons.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0873493311/rohimpersonal-20

 

[Rocky]

Scout Rifle?

Yanqui's post proves my point about the misinformation/disinformation/ confusion/ignorance regarding the Scout rifle as defined by Jeff Cooper to a tee.

Jeff came up with the term, publicized it, pursued it, (and should've registered it) a long time ago.....long before the M4 came into being. Peter Kokalis sums it up very well when he writes "Jeff Cooper owns the 'Scout Rifle' concept, lock, stock, and barrel." Don't know what more needs to be added - a Scout rifle is whatever Jeff Cooper says it is.

Jeff never intended for the Scout rifle to be the weapon of choice on today's battlefield. It's a GENERAL PURPOSE rifle. While a Scout rifle really isn't suited to today's combat zones, they've shown up there just the same.

The websites Yanqui posted are definitely worth checking out.

I haven't yet met a Marine, Cav Scout, or Spec Ops type who calls his M4 a Scout. The people I work with overseas carry M4s but nobody calls theirs a Scout.

"Scout rifle" can be kicked around until one is blue in the face, but it will not change the facts. Bottom line is the term "Scout rifle" was coined by Jeff Cooper, so he can make the rules.

Rocky

 

[Yanqui]

Scout Rifle?

I do not know why this is happening. I posted earlier and it showed up as Guest.

I posted as Guest: Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:38 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lever Scout Concept

Proceedings of the First Scout Rifle Conference
Held at Gunsite Ranch, Arizona, on 6, 7, 8 December 1983,
under the auspices of the Ekeiboloi Society

(as recorded and transcribed by Jeff Cooper, 14 December 1983)

Hoi Ekeiboloi translates "Those who hit what they aim at".

(Dedicated to excellence in weaponry.)

http://pw1.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutconference.html

... The lever-action principle was considered and resolved on the note that if a pre-war Savage 99T might be found in caliber 308, it could serve as a base for development.

So build a Scout Rifle any way you see fit. Jeff Cooper is not my gun god and neither is the bolt-action the be all and end all of rifle designs.

 

[Yanqui]

Scout Rifle?

I should have done this a long time ago. I thought I new the "meaning" of scout. But I was way off. Jeff Cooper had it right. I read all of his remarks on the subject. He was never very clear and somewhat vague on the subject. He never actually said it was for military purposes then again he never said it wasn't. So the Scout project "charged off madly in all directions."

But I woke up this morning with a thought. Look up "scout" in the dictionary. Jeff Cooper was right on the money.

The word "scout" has 4 different senses:
NOUN
1. person: A person employed to watch for something to happen
2. person: Someone employed to discover and recruit talented persons (especially in the worlds of entertainment or sports).
3. person: Someone who can find paths through unexplored territory.
VERB
1. perception: Explore, often with the goal of finding something or somebody

scout > Senses > noun (person) > 3
Meaning: Someone who can find paths through unexplored territory.
Broader: expert: A person with special knowledge or ability who performs skillfully.
Synonyms: pathfinder: Someone who can find paths through unexplored territory. guide: Someone who can find paths through unexplored territory.

Narrower: hunting guide

scout > Senses > verb (perception) > 1
Meaning: Explore, often with the goal of finding something or somebody.
Generic frame: Somebody ----s, Somebody ----s something
Typical use: The men scout the area for animals, The men scout for animals in the area
Broader: observe: Watch attentively.
Synonyms: reconnoiter: Explore, often with the goal of finding something or somebody. reconnoitre: Explore, often with the goal of finding something or somebody.

So I have to apologize for all my previous statements. I had the wrong idea on the meaning of the scout rifle concept. Jeff Cooper had it right all along. Jeff Cooper owns the 'Scout Rifle' concept, lock, stock, and barrel." Don't know what more needs to be added - a Scout rifle is whatever Jeff Cooper says it is.

The "Scout Rifle" aka "general purpose rifle" aka "hunting rifle" for a hunting guide.

 

[Rocky]

Scout Rifle?

Yep, Yanqui go ahead and build your rifle anyway you see fit, it's a free country.... just don't understand why - if you so dislike the concept and the "snobs" who promote it - would you insist on calling your built any way you see fit rifle a Scout anyway?

BTW, where is it stated a Scout rifle must be a bolt action?

Rocky

 

[Rocky]

P.S.

Neglected to log in for my last post.

P.S.

Dear Guest,

Reviewing Jeff Cooper's comments about the Scout rifle shows the reasons for deciding upon the bolt action vs. semi-automatic were primarily due to the weight factor. He has not, even today, ruled out the semi-auto -provided it can make weight - nor other action types. Only that, at the time, the bolt action was the most suitable.

Lever guns might make weight, but, with the exception of the Browning BLR and Savage 99 (might be others), don't handle pointed bullets a la .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO, etc., very well....

Rocky

 

[Larry Gibson]

Scout Rifle?

Guest

Interesting to note, if one has been following Cooper's thoughts on the scout rifle over the years, the M94 carbine has been addressed by him numerous times as suitable for use as a scout. Mostly he mentions as little as the addition of a receiver sight being necessary. I have been interested in the scout rifle concept since it's inception. Over the years I have had several and have used them extensively.

I have had a couple scout rifles, including a M94 with a 1.5 Burris scout scope, that met all the criteria listed by Cooper. However, over the years I have not been too concerned about the weight or overall length criteria if both are kept within reason. I have found if it works I will carry it within reasonable weight and a short barreled rifle is only useful in transportation when getting in and out of vehicles. I have never found, in my experience, a really light weight and short barreled rifle to be any advantage in hunting or CQC.

One that I used most often was an M1A that I shortened the barrel to 18" and remounted the flash suppresser (a couple years before the advent of the Bush rifle). I also removed the hinged buttplate assembly from the GI plastic stock and installed a recoil pad. This both lightened and shortened the rifle to almost scout specs when used with a 5 round magazine. I also installed a SA handguard and scout scope mount along with the Burris 1.5X when they became available. This was a very handy scout rifle that I used enough to shoot the barrel out (10,000+ rounds with a TE of 9.5).

The M94 worked quite well but somehow a M94 carbine with a scope on it just doesn't "look" right, no other complaints, just didn't look right. Went back to using just the receiver sight on it. Can't see the front sight to clearly anymore so the grandson gets the carbine and I've picked up a M94 Legacy. With a Lyman receiver sight I can focus on the front sight again.

I have a M91 Mauser with a Burris 3X LE on it that is working out quite well. The barrel is 22" and I've shortend the stock and put a recoil pad on it. Also have forged the bolt for manipulation when the rifle is still shouldered. A Lyman receiver sight 57SME compliments the scout scope as backup. It is still a pound over weight and of course the cartridge is not "universally available" but neither bother me. It's .312 150 gr bullet at 2800 fps is ballistically a 7.62 NATO anyway.

Another I have is a M36 Swede I've put into a sporter glass stock with a blind magazine. The bolt handle is also forged for better mounted manipulation. A Leuplold 2X scout scope is in low rings on a modified one piece base mounted on the rear sight base. An old style Redfield pop up aperature rear sight is affixed to the rear of the one biece base. The barrel is still original length but by not using the issue trigger guard/magazine the rifle makes weight. It has also been converted to cock on opening and a commercial trigger installed. Don't know if 6.5 Swede is "accepted worldwide" but it suits my purpose anyway.

Last is a FR8 in 7.62. I have forged the bolt handle, removed the hokey original rear sight and replaced it with a Lyman 57SME, removed the CETME style front sight and flash suppressor and replaced it with an M14 flash suppressor/front sight and installed the M1A scout scope base on the barrel. The handguard was inletted to fit over the base. The 1.5X Burris scout scope is on it. It meets all the criteria of Coopers scout rifle concept except it too is 1/2 lb too heavy.

All three of the above bolt action "scouts" can be loaded with single rounds and via 5 round stripper clips. I prefer the strippers to a magazine change. Along with the two modified bases above I have made several others for other "scouts". They are modified so the occular lens of the scope sits over the front receiver rings of the actions with minimal clearance (1/32 to 3/32s). Eye relief is then perfect and one does not have to search for the sight picture, it is just there as you "snap" the rifle in. I have compared the ergonomics and shootability of these three rifles to a Steyr and a Savage in proper scout configuration. I could find no difference between them and found all to be very useful and pleasant in their use.

I do not contend that the scout rifle concept is the panacea of rifles. I do say, and find, them to be quite useful within their intended purpose. I have other conventionally scoped rifles that I frequently use also. But as my eyes won't let me use aperture rear sights (my life long favorite for close to medium range shooting) on short barreled rifles anymore the scout scoped rifle concept becomes more valid and useful. They are handy and very accurate to use.

I have to say that most of the so called "scouts" made on military rifles and some commercial rifles with commercial scope bases or some home made ones are not very user friendly. The scopes are way to high requiring one to search for the sight picture. Stocks are often left to long and bolt handles are left straight. None of these come anywhere close to the true usefulness of even the basic scout rifle concept. Many who try these are not overly impressed and rightly so. I'm sure this is what Cooper is implying.

Larry Gibson

Jeff Cooper's Random Thoughts
http://www.beast-enterprises.com/jeffscout.html

The Scout project has "charged off madly in all directions." I guess I should not be surprised. Nobody owns the word "Scout," and anyone is free to call anything whatever he wants except on American university campuses, of course.

 

[Yanqui]

Scout Rifle?

http://oldguns.net/cgi-bin/f2f/f2f.pl?http://oldguns.net/q&a8_00.htm

# 3059 - J. Stevens Little Scout
8/26/00
Eva, St. Joseph, MO


.22 Long - J. Stevens - .22 - 14 1/2 - Nickel - can't find one -
Little Scout .22 long rifle PAT. July 2, 07 Where can we find parts for this? Any idea when this was made and how much approximately is it worth?

Answer:
Eva, J. Stevens introduced the Little Scout Sporting Rifle (also known as No. 14) in 1906 and discontinued it in 1908. The Little Scout had an 18" stepped barrel that was slip fit into the cast iron frame. The barrel was held in place by a set screw located at the bottom of the frame. The one piece Little Scout stock was made from a 3/4 inch thick walnut board with rounded edges. The Little Scout weighed only 2.8 pounds, sights were a small bead front and a simple fixed notch rear. For parts, check with Gun Parts Corporation, there is a link to them on our links page. If Gun Parts Corp. does not have the parts that you need, try posting a free add on our Wanted page. Little Scout values are in the $100 to $200 range depending on condition. Marc

J. Stevens Arms Catalog #57, reprint.
http://www.savage99.com/stevens57.htm
Quality reprint of the J. Stevens Arms catalog #57, 1927. This is not a photocopy. This is a big catalog measuring approximately 8 by 5 3/8 inches with 40 pages and is a faithful digital reproduction of this early catalog. It's cover is the classic hawk hunting grouse. It contains many illustrations of firearms and hunting scenes.

Stevens firearms included:
"Visible loader" No. 70
"Favorite" No. 27, No. 17, & No. 20
"Marksman" No. 12
"Crack Shoot" No. 26 & No. 26 1/2
"Little Scout" No. 14 1/2
"Junior" No. 11
"Ideal" No. 44
"Armory" No. 414
"Automatic Ejector" No. 107
"Plain Ejector" No. 105
"Automatic Ejector" No. 108
"Plain Ejector" No. 106
"Dreadnaught" No. 89
"Automatic Ejector w/ raised rib" No. 116
"Automatic Ejector w/ plain barrel" No. 115
"Riverside Arms Co." No. 95 & 95
"Stevens Hammerless" No. 335
"Stevens Hammerless" No. 330
"Riverside Arms Co. Hammerless" No. 315
"Stevens Hammer" No. 235
"Riverside Arms Co. Hammer" No. 215
"New Improved Field Grade" No. 620
"Riverside Arms Co. Repeater" No. 520
"Target" No. 10
"Off-Hand" No. 35

Also included are telescopic sights, mounts, sights, cleaning materials, swivels, and straps.

Springfield Armory
M-6 Scout
http://www.milesfortis.com/church/akc13.htm
Weight: 1.8kg | Length: 81.2cm - 45cm (Folded) | Sights: Adjustable Rear
Features:The Springfield Armory Scout is a lightweight sporter rifle, based on the original Air Force M6 Survival Rifle. It has a .22cal barrel and a .410 shotgun barrel in an over/under configuration. The buttstock has a compartment which can hold 9 .22 rounds, and 4 .410 shells. The rifle can be folded in half for transport and stowage. .410 Flares are available from the manufacturer.

Price: Approximatly $170 - $200 US depending on finish (1997).

Make & Model Subskill Speed IA Fire rate Hands Req'd Eff. range Action Magazine Ammo
Springfield M6 Scout Longarm 4 21 4 2 100 Semi-Auto 1/1 .22LR/.410

Soldier of Fortune Magazine for March 1984 carried a brief mention that the Springfield Armory firm was going to commence production of a copy of the Air Force gun. These were to be equipped with civilian legal 18 inch barrels, and a range of accessories were to be made available such as slings, .410 flare rounds, padded cases, and ‘scope mounts. The pictured gun was presumably a prototype and carried the same odd sling swivel mounting arrangements the Air Force guns carried. I have never actually seen a commercial M-6 which carried the odd arrangement the Air Force guns had.

According to the 2002 Gun Digest the M6 Scout was introduced in 1982.