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For those of you that are more knowledgeable about the Word than me.

Which Christians are going to **** because of thier church beliefs and dogma.
Inquiring minds don'cha'know.
 

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The state of an individual soul, regardless of church association, is known only to God alone. In the final moments before death, even the most hardened sinner may turn to God in sincere repentance and be saved. Conversely, even the most pious of souls may turn their heart away from God just moments before their death and be lost.
 

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No Christians are going to ****. Only those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior are going to ****.

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. The wages of that sin is death. But God demonstrated His love in that while we were sinners Christ died for us. That if we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans, various verses).
 

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I respectfully disagree. Recall that in Matt. 7:21, Jesus tells us that not all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will be saved because they will be judged by their evil deeds. In Eph. 6:10-17, Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won. Also, in Phil. 3:11, Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does NOT view his own resurrection as a certainty. In 2 Tim. 2:10, Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
 

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I respectfully disagree with your intrepretation of all those scriptures that you reference.

How can you say that someone (a hardened sinner) can call out to the Lord at death and be saved (with which I agree) then turn around and disagree with the most quoted Scripture in the NT regarding personal salvation?

Do you know what the word Christian means? How could someone who is a Christian die and go to ****?

I am not saying everyone who "calls" themselves Christians are going to Heaven. What I am saying is that everyone who is a GENUINE Christian will go to Heaven. Big difference.
 

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Jeager,

Which Christians are going to **** because of thier church beliefs and dogma.
Inquiring minds don'cha'know.
I've been asked this question before. I do think it kinda' sorta' falls under what Jesus meant when He said, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

From my own studies this refers not to standing in judgement over a person (ie, a judge in court, or saying that an action is wrong) but rather telling a person that he will go to **** because of something he's done or because of who he is.

I find a lot of denominations condemn others to **** because of this or that, and I cannot abide this. It's an affront to God, and could be interpreted as knowing 1) the future and 2) the Mind of God. Those are two things I just don't want to mess with.

In other words, I'm saying your question is unanswerable by a mortal man without putting his own standing with the Father at risk.

EC <><
 

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RBishop said:
I respectfully disagree with your intrepretation of all those scriptures that you reference.

How can you say that someone (a hardened sinner) can call out to the Lord at death and be saved (with which I agree) then turn around and disagree with the most quoted Scripture in the NT regarding personal salvation?

Do you know what the word Christian means? How could someone who is a Christian die and go to ****?
Please refer to Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 which teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved." Also, if works are unnecessary for salvation then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works as pointed out in 1 Cor. 3:15?

Finally, in Matt. 10:22, 24:13 & Mark 13:13 Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

RBishop said:
I am not saying everyone who "calls" themselves Christians are going to Heaven. What I am saying is that everyone who is a GENUINE Christian will go to Heaven. Big difference.
A person who calls himself a 'Christian', honestly believes themselves to be a GENUINE Christian in the same manner that a GENUINE Christian believes themselves to be a GENUINE Christian.

Therefore, there is no way for a GENUINE Christian to know FOR SURE if they are a GENUINE Christian or not since both a GENUINE Christian and a non-GENUINE Christian will believe themselves to be a GENUINE Christian.
 

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EL
I would not call it judging a person. I might say that one has an understanding of scripture which may disagree with another.
I can say I understand where Sir Knight and RB are coming from.
Sir Knight is correct when he says that a persons salvation is very personal and is between God and that individual.
I would disagree with him if he is stating that an individual cannot know if he is in a right relationship with God.
Scripture is pretty plain on this point, that is knowing. The little book of first John is just one source I will reference. John states that one who does not keep the commandments is in a hopeless situation, salvation wise. John also makes it clear in the same writing that no one is sinless.
Is this contradiction? I believe not. Lets take a look and see.
I think that the new covenant Jesus taught makes it very clear that sinless perfection is not possible, I would hope that you and, well, all readers will understand that this is the goal of a born again believer. That is also the goal of the Holy spirit. Well, it is his duty to guide, direct, convict and help the believer to this goal. We all try and we all fail, but that should never be an excuse to purposefully sin.
The amplified bible verifies this by the wording it uses. This scripture is one of living in, being guided by, continually sinning. The same scripture is found in Pauls letter to the Hebrews cpt. 10 beginning in v 25 as I recall.
1 John says the Christian cannot sin because his seed, the Holy Spirit remains in him, not that a true Christian cannot sin, as previously discussed.
Some denominations, normally those with an Armenian bent, will say that a person can loose salvation thru sinning.
I have some agreement and disagreement in this area. That said, let us get back on topic.
I john says very clearly that a person can know, for sure know if he/she is saved. It is logical because if one cannot know how can he trust.
The tenants for salvation are pretty simple, to me, anyway, and to Christ Jesus according to his teaching.
Believe in me and you will be saved. Believe what? Believe I am who I say I am, Son of Man, Son of God, Messiah, GOD, Savior.
How can one reach faith. Scripture says it is a gift, conviction by the Holy Spirit-Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God (Christ Jesus) as witnessed by the Holy Spirit.
Now I believe the Hen is saved (well most of the time, except when she is on my case) but I do not know that but I can certainly tell from her fruits that her confession is valid (cept when she is on my case).
I am hopeful this will be of benefit.
Blessings
 

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Mr. Layton,

I would not call it judging a person. I might say that one has an understanding of scripture which may disagree with another.
I do not understand how you get this. I've read and reread your post several times.

Let's say I'm Roman Catholic and don't believe in the "born again" stuff. There are those who would say that because of this, I am going to ****.

Isn't that for God to decide? Isn't that what happens during judgement?

Sure, we can disagree. However, I'm not in the position to tell someone he is going to **** because of a difference in beliefs.

The original poster asked
Which Christians are going to **** because of thier church beliefs and dogma
and I gave my honest opinion.

That throws open the question of "what is faith?" Can I say for certainty that I'm going to Heaven? No, I cannot. I have faith that I will, but faith is far from certainty as illustrated by the different demoninational beliefs, which I think I need not go into.

This is what I'm looking at in this discussion.

EC <><
 

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Well now, lets see here.
Faith! Faith in faith? Faith in God! two different things. One, faith in faith is an intellectual assent. Faith in God-well now, that is from above, given, a gift.
Dogma, that is a good word. Would I say that Christ Jesus said unless you believe I AM who I say I AM you will never see heaven is that dogma?
Christ Jesus said such and I do not believe there was/is much dogma in his message. Who did he say he was? He said he was/is God.
Now if you are RC, Lutheran, oh just pick one, and your true confession is Christ is God then you can have about all the dogma you can spin and still be as saved as anyone.
Folks we see many things differently, stand when we sing, sit when we sing, use instruments or not, light candles, speak in tongues, be oneness-now we are talking dogma-and still be born again or lost as satan-but if, Christ is God the rest is immaterial.
No, I do not think, have never heard it uttered that any denomination would condemn another to ****. They may think the other is wrong as sin, but think they are going to ****-God forbid, no.
Wish someone to ****, again, God forbid, no.
Sir Knight and I are as far apart on many doctrines as cats and dogs and I am convinced he is as wrong as snow in August, but, never, ever not a Christian-if his confession is true, and I believe it is.
I do not know how he stands on this but that is my take.
Deny Christ as God and I will pray for you, try and lead you-never, ever condemn you, just not my job, but I do know the outcome of that belief system.
Blessings
 

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williamlayton said:
I would disagree with him if he is stating that an individual cannot know if he is in a right relationship with God.
As I mentioned above, the people in Matt. 7:21 who cried out "Lord, Lord" thought that they were saved -- meaning that they were under the impression that they were in a 'right relationship with God' but they weren't. This, along with the other passages that I referenced earlier, seems to indicate to me that we can never be personally assured of our own salvation until we meet our maker and He tells us 'Well done, my faithful servant. Come share in your Master's delight' or 'Away with you, you evil do'er into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels'.
 

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Sir Knight,

Jesus was referring to those who professed to be Christians but were not. He was not referring to people who "thought" they were Christians. Jesus often taught of "religous" people. Those who prayed fancy prayers in front of an audience, those who practiced religous pomp and ceremony, people who accepted religion but rejected Christ.

Please consider 1 John 5:12-13. "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

Upon the authority of God's Word, you can be saved and know it. Your faith in God's infallible Word is your assurance of salvation. The Bible is a book of certanties. It strengthens convictions and establishes beliefs. God wants us to know:

1) That you are a child of God. 1 John 3:2
2) That you have been made the righteousness of God In Christ. 2 Cor. 5:21 and Romans 10:1, 4.
3) That you are now a new creation in Christ. 2 Cor. 5:17
4) That you are now a son and heir of God. Gal. 4:7

Could anyone have greater assurance than is found in God's infallible Word?

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

Wasn't Job who said "I know my Redeemer lives!" Sir Knight I pray that you might some day be assured of your salvation, that you will recognize that you have been adopted as God's child and that noone can take you from His hand or seperate you from His love.
 

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Let me ask this again ... The infallible Word of God tells us in in Matt. 10:22, 24:13 & Mark 13:13 that we must endure to the very end in order to be saved. If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.
 

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Matthew is, of course, telling of the end times. This little discussion could take on a whole different course and a discussion of such should be done on a different topic string.
That said, faith is the key word or concept to be understood here. If I were RC I could interject works into the conversation as a requirement, but, I do not understand salvation as a combination of works and faith.
I understand, as Luther so aptly said, Faith in Christ Jesus, who he is, who he said he is, to be the key. Works are a litmus, they may define/reveal/indicate a heart condition but they do not/play no part in the actual affair.
Endure/stand firm/change not your stance, are words of warning to keep steady in your faith. A last minute utterance of foul language/words of hate towards another are not indications of a change of heart.
It has been said, and often taken out of context, that at the last minute of a persons life, if he is a true confessing Christian, can be in many types of situations where he has little or no chance of repenting/asking forgiveness and he will still find himself/herself in the arms of the Lord.
Contrary to RC teaching, the new testament/new covenant takes out the chance of loss of salvation due to a sin. Now a lifestyle of sin is a different argument, though it would need be for the individual wondering to make a judgement/proclaim a judgement condemning or judging a person to be lost in this situation.
Then the RC has come up with a loophole, has it not, and allowed indulgences, prayers, candles to be applied to reclaim this one from perdition.
I must stand on grace and faith as the cornerstone of the teachings of Christ Jesus, not works of righteousness.
Blessings
 

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Jaeger is there anything positive about God and His Word that makes you laugh? You seem to find most enjoyment when we can't agree?
 

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jeager106 said:
For those of you that are more knowledgeable about the Word than me.

Which Christians are going to **** because of thier church beliefs and dogma.
Inquiring minds don'cha'know.
No Christians go to ****, they are all saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Psuedo-christians all go.

Mike
 
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