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Discussion Starter #1
This subject has come up a couple times on the Medium Bore forum. Rather than start a thread there I have created this one and will link to it from the Medium Bore forum.

Here's some questions:

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills. Is it any less ethical to display females?
 

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If I have found out one thing for sure, it's that many people hate the word ethics, don't want you to even suggest what may be ethical and believe that anything legal is ethical. You have opened a huge can of worms.
 

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Coyote said:
This subject has come up a couple times on the Medium Bore forum. Rather than start a thread there I have created this one and will link to it from the Medium Bore forum.

Here's some questions:

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills. Is it any less ethical to display females?
1. Yes.
2. If it's obviously smaller than average or it's still got spots then yes, they should be off limits.
3. Why not? I shoot does for the meat, I shoot bucks for them eat, the rack is a bonus. ****, just getting to see a deer in the woods is a bonus.
 

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1) Yes

2) It's up to you and your management plan. I try my absolute best not to shoot young bucks, but not really from an ethics point of view.

3) Uh, I don't know. How would one do that? I think part of the pride in shooting a big buck is the difficulty involved. Certainly for some shooting a doe is a great accomplishment, but most hunters I know could shoot 25 or more does for every great buck they see.

I've deleted a couple of posts in this thread. It was not started to debate shot placement vs. premium bullets. I will not allow threads to be hijacked by those who are carrying on a fight in a different thread.[/color]
 

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Most definitely up to the management plan. There are many state that want the does dead so they don't overpopulate. Which is a good idea to me. I don't think that the mounting and displays have to do with ethics... they have to do with ego. People are prouder the bigger the rack, it's just how life works. I myself think that full mounts of does or cows are pretty cool... but they still don't impress most people like a ten point buck or a 65" moose.

Up here in AK, most hunters don't have the chance to kill cows, and most that I know wouldn't if they got the chance, because they know that if many people are killing cows, they can hurt the population. Which is already hurting.

So that being said, I really don't think it has anything to do with ethics. It is a game animal. Male or female, they both put meat in the freezer. You just have to find out killing what ratio of male to female will keep the population at a healthy and manageable level.
 

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I'm not sure I would call it ethics but I think your view point changes over the years. And, perhaps your knowledge. Not to say that folks that kill does are smarter than folks that kill bucks. When I was younger (and more fit) I wanted to kill a buck, the bigger the better. And to some extent, it was an ego thing. I proved my fitness and skills by taking a prime example of my quarry. And, of course, I would never admit that sometimes it was a matter of blind, stupid luck of being in the right place at the right time. ;D
I have shot a lot of bucks. Some of them pretty good ones (they were in the wrong place at the wrong time). But now I shoot spikes and does. If I saw a big buck, he would have to be an awfully biiiig sucker before I'd pop a cap on him.
As far as the ethics of the thing goes, we have state game biologist that make big bucks trying to keep our deer herds in a healthy balance. If they say we need to kill more slicks, then I don't have a problem helping them out. :)
 

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Most of it depends on the conservation standards of where your at...but...as to Bragging about killing fawns of any kind...ABSOLUTELY NOT...I know if the state wants it done...they are trying to control the numbers...but...why give those who don't hunt the idea we are all Bambi Killers...and this is exactly what some of the behavior around here could do This is what my beef with some is about...If folks want to do it...and it's legal...fine...but this I'll post what I want when I want mentality needs to be checked at the door...The animal rights groups spread their BS to the non hunting majority in this country...and let's face it...we are the minority in this country...many folks who don't hunt are the ones who vote...and these folks are easily swayed by plastering pictures of killing fawns...It may be legal to do so...but...unethical for the sport...and for any conservation methods used by the states...to brag about it...Does it make you an accomplished hunter to take a fawn under 100 yards with a magnum rifle...I think not...Why give the anti's any additional fuel they can use...Just because...Nope...Some things are better left out of normal discussions... I M H O...BTW...I would not take a fawn personally...unless it was to put the animal out of it's misery...nor would I shoot a doe with a fawns...I'm not a substance hunter...Maybe if I was starving it would be another matter..

Mac
 

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Discussion Starter #8
1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

The last 4 animals I’ve taken included 3 cows and a forkhorn mulie. The last two animals my hunting buddy has taken included a cow and a doe. I think that explains where I stand on the matter.

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

I won’t shoot a fawn with spots but young of the year are fair game if large enough. I have shot spikes.

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills. Is it any less ethical to display females?

I post pictures of the females just as I do the males. Shamelessly.
 

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How many of you check the womb of the older does to see if they had a tiny embryo in them when they were killed?Dont think about that do you?If you have a problem with shooting does/fawns,dont do it,leaves more for the rest of us that know you are still taking a deer out of the herd and age makes no difference other than the quality of the meat.We get tons of doe/fawn tags for sale in our state because there are so many of you closeminded people who only want horns and expect the same from everyone else.Killing a buck out of the herd does nothing for the long term number management,the does will get bred by another buck.If you want to keep numbers in check you have to kill does,and they provide better meat than an old buck so WHY NOT?By the time or seasons open the yearlings are just slightly smaller than the mature game,what possible difference does it make if you only kill does that are 1 year older?I am not the least bit concerned about the BAMBI crowd seeing pics of dead deer,its not going to help their agenda any more than than the idiots here arguing ethics amongst hunters,you are the weak link in the hunting world,dont try to force your personal choices upon others under the guise of "ethics".
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Two questions for those of you that won't shoot does, etc:

1. Veal is meat from a calf that has been horribly mistreated for its short, miserable existence.

How many of you enjoy veal? (I refuse to eat the stuff.)


2. Hamburger is ground meat from cattle, sex and age unknown.

How many of you eat hamburger? (I do, for one.)
 

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I've gotta agree with Don. Maybe "ethics" wasn't the best word to choose. Especially since it seems to ignite Nonya so. ;)
I kinda fall between Mac11700 and Nonya. I used to take pictures of what I killed but I'd kinda pose the animal. And, for God's sake, I'd tuck its tongue in its mouth. (pet peeve #1 ;D ) But I don't see how anyone can't find the pictures of Bubba and Junior, posing with their 50 calibre and the dead deer with the beer can in the hole in it's side anything less than offensive.
Actually, that has nothing to do with ethics, dead is dead, but it has a lot to do with good taste.
To say I can afford to eat meat other than venison would imply that I eat venison because I am too poor to do otherwise. That is not the case. I eat beef because I've run out of venison. I eat deer meat because I genuinely like it. I don't eat it to the exclusion of beef, pork, and chicken but it adds another facet to my diet and a healthy one at that.

Veal at one time, was baby beef that hadn't been weaned. Now it merely means baby beef that is under a certain weight. I eat it like any other protein.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
beemanbeme said:
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Veal at one time, was baby beef that hadn't been weaned. Now it merely means baby beef that is under a certain weight. I eat it like any other protein.
...
This is not the place for such a discussion, but your description of veal is not exactly accurate. I suggest anyone that is interested do a google search on the subject.
 

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I guess I'm missing something here?

Coyote said:
Two questions for those of you that won't shoot does, etc:

1. Veal is meat from a calf that has been horribly mistreated for its short, miserable existence.

How many of you enjoy veal? (I refuse to eat the stuff.)


2. Hamburger is ground meat from cattle, sex and age unknown.

How many of you eat hamburger? (I do, for one.)
Coyote said:
beemanbeme said:
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Veal at one time, was baby beef that hadn't been weaned. Now it merely means baby beef that is under a certain weight. I eat it like any other protein.
...
This is not the place for such a discussion, but your description of veal is not exactly accurate. I suggest anyone that is interested do a google search on the subject.
 

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My opinion:

1) Why not? Are predators in the wild that selective? I happen to hunt for meat and cow elk taste good.
2) See above. For the sake of keeping hunting acceptable to the non-hunting populace, probably not a good idea. Considering that the average hunter is not doing it for subsistance reasons, definitely not. Me personally-I couldn't do it but if I were starving that's how I would rationalize it. For the record, I've never eaten veal and don't intend to.
3) I don't see how ethics enters into it. It's a matter of personal taste. I'm sure I've killed some male flies, mice and rabbits but haven't mounted any of them, come to think of it. Killed lots of female mosquitos and left them smashed on the walls or windows for awhile before I got around to wiping them off. That count?
 

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Hey CH, you're the one that brought up veal. And I don't need google to tell me what veal is. If you don't eat it, that's your option, I couldn't care less but if you've got an axe to grind, I'm not interested. As I've said, I eat it and like.
 

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I'm surprise CH would even bring up the subject of ethical etc goes to show a lack of understand how his home state figures harvest quotes and the balance of male to female ratio to maintain a healthy herd. Hunters are part of game management by choice.
 

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Coyote said:
This subject has come up a couple times on the Medium Bore forum. Rather than start a thread there I have created this one and will link to it from the Medium Bore forum.

Here's some questions:

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills. Is it any less ethical to display females?
I really didn't answer all of the questions...so I'll just do it the easy way...for normal hunting seasons unless other wise specified by the state management

1) Yes...provided they aren't with their fawns...This would also go for a sow bear with small cubs...Moose...Elk...Caribou...or any other big game with a normal hunting season...

2) Absolutely...unless abandoned or wounded

3) No...there are lots of folks who mount doe heads...Why...I dunno...personally I don't & won't...but it's their money...


Two questions for those of you that won't shoot does, etc:

1. Veal is meat from a calf that has been horribly mistreated for its short, miserable existence.

How many of you enjoy veal? (I refuse to eat the stuff.)


2. Hamburger is ground meat from cattle, sex and age unknown.

How many of you eat hamburger? (I do, for one.)

I will shoot does...and have in the past...I just don't shoot fawns...but I will answer your last 2 questions any ways

1)...I don't eat veal...never have...never will...nor do I eat monkey brains..cockroaches..worms..grubs...or a whole lot of other things knowingly

2) Yes I eat hamburger...and FWIW....not all hamburger is from unknown ages of cattle...most depends on where & what type or grade you purchase..and where you purchase it at...

Mac
 

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Discussion Starter #19
roper said:
I'm surprise CH would even bring up the subject of ethical etc goes to show a lack of understand how his home state figures harvest quotes and the balance of male to female ratio to maintain a healthy herd. Hunters are part of game management by choice.
I brought it up because the subject came up, with specific reference to does and fawns, on another board that I moderate. Rather than discuss it there I opened a thread on this board, which I deemed to be a more appropriate venue.

That I would bring it up here does not show anything regarding my understanding, or lack thereof, of Colorado's game management methods. As noted above in one of my posts, I hunt both sexes and feel no shame in doing so.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Mac11700 said:
...

2) Yes I eat hamburger...and FWIW....not all hamburger is from unknown ages of cattle...most depends on where & what type or grade you purchase..and where you purchase it at...

Mac
And of course you get a "Certificate of Animal Age and Sex" with your hamburger purchases, especially at restaurants? Most ranchers and farmers won't sell a calf because its more profitable to sell them when they have more weight on them. Nevertheless, what happens to the burger meat from veal calves? It does not go to waste. The point is the vast majority of the time people really don't know what is in their hamburger. And few give it a second thought - including most of the "I won't shoot a doe" types.
 
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