Graybeard Outdoors banner

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
84 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Springfield Rifle

Howdy

Just remimber NO AIR GAP!
Fill the case to a point that is 1/8" more than the bullet depth will be when setted. In my handguns and rifle I just set the bullet on the powder. But in my B.C. I load powder 55 grs of 777, a overpowder card cut from a milk cartoon, 50/50 cookie (beeswax/crisco), and another card to keep it from sticking to back of the 486 gr. bullet, then compress and crimp the round.
I try to get all rounds as close to the same as possible in weight +/- 2000 I can get a grouping of 6" at 250 yards with 20 shots.
A blow tube help put mosture down the barrel between shoots if you are shooting in a string of shooters.

Peddler Parsons
SASS #31281
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
84 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Springfield Rifle

Howdy

Just remimber NO AIR GAP!
Roll the mouth just enough so the case does not cut lead off the bullet when setting it.
Fill the case to a point that is 1/8" more than the bullet depth will be when setted. In my handguns and rifle I just set the bullet on the powder. But in my B.C. I load powder (55 grs of 777), a overpowder card cut from a milk cartoon, 50/50 cookie (beeswax/crisco), and another card to keep it from sticking to back of the 486 gr. bullet, then compress and crimp the round. Crimping helps get a more consistate pressure and cleaner burn of the powder.
I try to get all rounds as close to the same as possible in weight +/- 2000 I can get a grouping of 6" at 250 yards with 20 shots.
A blow tube help put mosture down the barrel between shoots if you are shooting in a string of shooters.

Peddler Parsons
SASS #31281
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Trapdoor Springfield loads and loading

Quote...."With all due respect to our BPCR shooting friends, me thinks that the use of blowtubes, talk of humidity, special lubricants, bore fouling, etc is much affectation".

John,

My past shooting experiences without black powder were cause to smirk at that which I knew nothing.

After a year plus of diligent reading, re-reading, loading, reading some more, reloading, reading some more and shooting two different BPCR cartridge rifles, in the process, my reaction to your assessment is "hogwash".
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,068 Posts
Springfield Rifle

:D Mike, your bullet sounds good. The amount of compression depends on what powder you use. To load a black powder cartridge pour enough black powder into the cartridge so that when you seat the bullet you get enough compression to know you have eliminated all airspace, then seat your bullet. You now have a good shootable blackpowder cartridge. Load some and go shoot'em. When ya get home and after you git that big grin under control, at least enough to see the 'puter your gonna want to know all the little tricks, potions, and charms that may (or may not) have any influence on trying to put 5 rounds into one hole half a mile away. It's fun, all the other things these experienced people are refering to are things above and beyond the basics. My recommendation to you would be DON'T TRY IT!! Unless your ready for a long search for that "perfect load" for your rifle. I gets in your blood like nothing else. If you think your ready, load a few "Basic" rounds and give'em a try
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
632 Posts
Springfield Rifle

:D John. I would very strongly listen to anything that these gentleman are teilling you. None will tell you anything that will hurt you in any way. Each will go out of his way to do anything that they can to assist you in getting the most out of your rifle,and out of yourself in the sport of BPCR..I have shot BPCR for twho years,using four differant rifles. I have read just about every book that I could find,purchase,or borrow,and then reread them. I have shot over 3,000 round past my .45-70,.45-120,.50-140, and I thought I knew more about it that the average guy doing this sport. I DONT & PROBABLY NEVER WILL,but these guys honestly helped me improove where I thought there was not any room fer improovement. LISTEN TO THEM !!!!!!!!!. If not,like one of the guys said,shoot a couple rounds and..................................... King :twisted:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
761 Posts
Springfield Rifle

John>the guys on this forum wont steer you down the wrong path willfully.They know black powder.I will tell you I even take it s step further when it gets real hot and dry and I'm in a long string match.I blow tube,and if that long 34" barrel gets hot and the blowtubing wont soften it I spit in the tube and blow it through and if I run out of spit I take a little swig of water and blow that through that just about just about cleans the barrel like pushing a patch thruogh.That might sound grose to some but it makes a difference down range.LP
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
761 Posts
Springfield Rifle

:D Hi DO Fren Marsh.Golly Marsh please dont call me Mr.It makes me feel so old :) Yes I do blow down the muzzle end now and then,but I dont like the tast and it leaves a black ring on my lipe and the Wife wont give me a kiss when I get home :-D
Marsh I make my lube with two toilet bowl wax rings 1/2 to1 cup lard or crisco depending on the time of year, 2oz.lanolin.I can push a dry patch through and It comes out greasy.when it gets real hot and dry I add beewax to stiffen it up a mite,and cut bacon wads and put then between 2 milk carton wads and a news paper wad under the bullet to keep the milk carton from sticking on the base of the bullet. Lp.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,068 Posts
Springfield Rifle

:D Lead Pot, I just wanted to thank you, you are the only other person I've seen that admits to using toilet rings. Durn good stuff mixed with unsalted lard, or crisco. thanks for the pariffin hint for hot weather.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Springfield Rifle

John--You can load casually, and have a lot of fun--and maybe impress your circle of friends. Load casually and show up at a BPCR match, and you will get beat like a drum. Ammunition used by the top shooters in BPCR is more sophisticated than you would believe and assembled with meticulous care. You CAN get 70 grains of Goex 2f in a 45-70 with a Remington case, it's done all the time. Some people use Winchester cases and 74 to 76 grains of powder.

Lubes, wads, blow tube technique, and a lot of things that the smokeless shooter doesn't even think about are part of managing the rifle through a string of fire. Got a thermometer and a hydrometer in your shooting box? I do, and so do a lot of other guys I know.

Play at any level you want to. Its a lot of fun, no matter which path you choose. Shoot straight, rdnck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,095 Posts
Springfield Rifle

rdnck

Been reading this thread with some interest as I've been loading for BP rifles, the 45-70 in particular, since 1970. There is a lot of sophistication (I sometimes call it "witchcraft") used in loading BP cartridges by many shooters. Some methods really work and many are done just because Mathews or some other writer said it worked for him. Many shooters go along blissfully doing some things that really do not provide any benifit in accuracy or ease of manipulation during loading. Considering this thread is supposed to be about BP loads for Sringfield TDs, most if not all the "witchcraft' gyrations are best not used because they don't work and show no benifit in using them with original TDs.

One can follow Wolf's proceedure for duplicating arsenal loads as outlined in his excellent book (anyone loading for TDs really should have this book) book and get some very satisfying accuracy with a TD. Or you can use my modified method of Wolf's when loading match loads and get extremely good accuracy. With either method use of a blow tube is not necessary, over powder wads of cardboard or additional lube are not necessary and many of the other "recommended" gyrations are not necessary either as they'll produce no increase in accuracy. With TDs the use of a properly designed bullet, proper lubericant, correctly prepped cases, proper primer and a properly compressed powder charge are the key factors to reliable consistantly good accuracy.

I believe John was alluding to this although I dissagree with him (and certainly agree with you) on the amount of BP one can easily get into a modern solid head case. The intermediate "balloon head" cases of course held more BP than modern solid head cases. However the original Benet primed cases hold about the same as modern Winchester cases of today. The Benet inside primers ate up a lot of case capacity in those old folded head cases.

The old military marksmen held their own with arsenal loaded ammo in TDs against all the brewers of "witchcraft" loads back int the 1880/90s and they will still do so today. I have shot in numerous local 200 yard bench matches where four 10 shot groups were used for aggregate. Very, very seldom are MOA or less 10 shot groups recorded byanyone. Most often the winner will be in the 1.5 to 2 MOA range. These local matches usually have 25-30 shooters with rifles ranging from old original rifles to the finest that money can buy today. I believe all the methods of 'witchcraft' are use and perhaps some secret loading methods also. I hold my own in these matches with my TD using my modified Wolf loading method. Last match I shot in I missed the smallest group award by .005. BTW; I never use a blow tube with a TD. I have tested them and found no increase in accuracy or ease ability to load with TDs.

Guess what I'm saying is some of the "witchcraft" proffered may be necassary with some modern or match rifles but with original TDs it isn't. John wasn't that far off, then neither was anyone else for that matter. Lot's of good info being given, it must be just used in context to be successful.

Larry Gibson



rdnck said:
John--You can load casually, and have a lot of fun--and maybe impress your circle of friends. Load casually and show up at a BPCR match, and you will get beat like a drum. Ammunition used by the top shooters in BPCR is more sophisticated than you would believe and assembled with meticulous care. You CAN get 70 grains of Goex 2f in a 45-70 with a Remington case, it's done all the time. Some people use Winchester cases and 74 to 76 grains of powder.

Lubes, wads, blow tube technique, and a lot of things that the smokeless shooter doesn't even think about are part of managing the rifle through a string of fire. Got a thermometer and a hydrometer in your shooting box? I do, and so do a lot of other guys I know.

Play at any level you want to. Its a lot of fun, no matter which path you choose. Shoot straight, rdnck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Springfield Rifle

LMG--I read your post with a lot of curiosity and interest. I certainly agree that there are a lot of contorted and whacky methods employed in loading BPCR ammo by some people. None that I know that take this approach have a great deal of success other than their own amusement, to my knowledge.

However, there are some really accurate load and rifle combinations in the BPCR Silhouette game, and I don't know of a single person that competes on a regular basis that doesn't use a blow tube. It is not unusual to shoot in 100 to 105 degree temperature and humidity of less than 10 percent in some areas of Texas, Oklahoma , New Mexico, etc. You might get away with not using a blow tube in Washington State, but I don't think you could at Raton.

A really neat rifle match, maybe the most fun match of the year is the Quigley shoot in Forsyth, Montana. It is held every Father's Day, and attracted over 400 participants last year. They have a Trapdoor class, and are always happy to see a really good Trapdoor show up. We drove 1700 miles one way last year to attend, and since the move, that has been shortened to 1500 miles one way. We wouldn't miss it, and in fact already have our motel reservations for this year's match. You really should try to make it. Quigley is a gong shoot, not a silhouette match, but there are some good rifles there, and some men who know how to shoot them. There are a lot of Sharps up there. You ought to bring your Trapdoor and see how it stacks up. Shoot straight, rdnck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,095 Posts
Springfield Rifle

rdnck

We're not singing off the same page of the hymm book here, talking apples and oranges so to speak. MikeC's question and the subject of this thread is loading for TDs. He saked; "From reading the posts here it seems to me that the cartridge loading of black powder is a lot more problematic than muzzle loading, there is much talk of powder fouling and blowing down the barrel, humidity ect.

My question is: What would be a good powder type and charge, how much compression is desireable and should I use an over powder wad?
Also I hand lubed the 410gr. HB Lee bullets with SPG."

I have been referencing my answers to that and what it really takes to make TDs shoot well and what's not required. Interesting to note that Frankford and Springfield arsenals did quite a bit of experimenting with shooting TDs (not too hard to figure) They developed very accurate loads for their soldiers that were very competitive in the matches of the day, probably would be today also. Wolf duplicated these loads quite well in his bbok, I merely refined his technique for match purposes.

The loads the the arsenals developed did not require the use of a blow tube under any circumstances. Blow tubes are used today, also yesteryear, for the express purpose of keeping the fouling in the lead of the throat soft so a tight fitting bullet may be chambered after several rounds are fired. Many actions do not provide any camming to the cartridge when the breech is closed. Thus the need for the shooter to be able to push the cartridge all the way in during chambering. The arsenal designed bullets and camming ability of the TD negates the use or need of a blow tube. The use of a simple effective lube such as SPG or Wolf's beeswax/olive oil lube provides soft fouling anyway even in dry arid locations. I ran several test with and without the use of a blow tube and found no gain whatsoever in TDs with the use of one. Some claim the use of heavy breathing through the tube is more accurate and there is some belief that is the case with some rifles. Have yet to see it with TDs. Yes, I know most use a tube but I think many do because THINK they need too because some "expert" told them to, not becuase they've proven they do need to. But most use them so they can chamber rounds in foulded chamber/bores. Again, that's not needed with TDs.

Another such bit of BP folklore (withcraft) is that there absolutely must NEVER be any airspace between the powder and the bullet base in BP loads. This is coming into question and disproven by such notables as Steve Garbe, I'm sure you've heard of him.

MikeC's Lee bullet is Lee's very close copy of the 1873 service bullet. Wolf recommends it as do I for use in TDs. MikeC is hand lubing unsized bullets and I'll bet they are are between .462 and .466 diameter. Every lee 405HB mould I've used has cast in that range depending on alloy. He will find good accuracy with Wolfs recommended loads and loading proceedure which does not recommend the use of a wad.

My advice for best accuracy with this bullet is to use 70 gr of Goex Cartridge (He may want ot experiment between 60 and 70 gr of powder)
compressed just to the base of the bullet. This depth is determined by seating a bullet so 1/3 of the driving band is engraved by the rifling when the breech block is closed camming the bullet into the rifling. Cases should be neck sized (the new Lyman NS die works very well for this) and an expander used that leaves about .003 tension on the bullets. The case mouth flair should be straightened out (no crimp needed) or even left flaired so as to further seal the chamber. The camming action of closing the breech block does this with little additional effort. He will be able to fire this load through a "string" without the lube/fouling getting hard and blowing through a blow tube will not increase his accuracy. It will just succeed in making him breath harder and get his heart pumping faster for the next shot.

BTW; most of Washington and Oregon for that matter are not the "wet humid rain forrest envirnment " most think. The larger eastern parts of each state can get quite hot and arid with very low hunidity. I have been to Raton and it is not very dissimular to many parts of eastern Oregon where I am really from and have done most of my shooting. You know what they say about "assume", one shouldn't.

I would really love to make the Quigley and the nationals at Raton, perhaps in a few years when I retire or if other shooting interests slack off. Maybe sooner, who knows?

Larry Gibson


rdnck said:
LMG--I read your post with a lot of curiosity and interest. I certainly agree that there are a lot of contorted and whacky methods employed in loading BPCR ammo by some people. None that I know that take this approach have a great deal of success other than their own amusement, to my knowledge.

However, there are some really accurate load and rifle combinations in the BPCR Silhouette game, and I don't know of a single person that competes on a regular basis that doesn't use a blow tube. It is not unusual to shoot in 100 to 105 degree temperature and humidity of less than 10 percent in some areas of Texas, Oklahoma , New Mexico, etc. You might get away with not using a blow tube in Washington State, but I don't think you could at Raton.

A really neat rifle match, maybe the most fun match of the year is the Quigley shoot in Forsyth, Montana. It is held every Father's Day, and attracted over 400 participants last year. They have a Trapdoor class, and are always happy to see a really good Trapdoor show up. We drove 1700 miles one way last year to attend, and since the move, that has been shortened to 1500 miles one way. We wouldn't miss it, and in fact already have our motel reservations for this year's match. You really should try to make it. Quigley is a gong shoot, not a silhouette match, but there are some good rifles there, and some men who know how to shoot them. There are a lot of Sharps up there. You ought to bring your Trapdoor and see how it stacks up. Shoot straight, rdnck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Springfield Rifle

LMG--You are right, we are not really on the same page. Your loads for the Trapdoor are designed to work in the Trapdoor, and they do that. An undersized nose and an action that cams a bullet through the fouling in the throat will shoot an extended string, and a hollow base bullet does not have a tendency to foul the throat as much as does a flat based bullet.

However, for you to infer that the ammo you are shooting is haphazard or thrown together is less than totally candid. You are paying particular attention to a number of factors that regulate the performance of your ammo, and it has been developed to work in a specific rifle. You are not shooting junk ammo, anyway you cut it.

Be that as it may, and as well as your Trapdoor loads work in your Trapdoor, I doubt that your rifle and ammo are accurate enough to shoot Master class scores in the NRA BPCR venue. If the Trapdoor rifle and ammo system was accurate enough to do the job, with or without a blow tube, you would see them on the line competing in silhouette matches. I don't know of a single competitor that shoots one on a regular basis. There are a couple of AA class shooters that bring one out every now and then at Mexia, but as far as shooting good scores with one, I have yet to see it.

John Fuller won Quigley a couple of years ago with a Trapdoor built by John King. I was there, saw the rifle, got beat by it, and talked to Mr. Fuller for over an hour. THIS Trapdoor was hardly a Trapdoor in the real sense of the word. Badger Match barrel, Sporter stock with a pistol grip, titanium firing pin, double set triggers, and MVA long range Soule rear sight and a spirit level windage adjustable sight on the front. Load was 68 grains of Goex 2f and a Lyman 480 grain Schmitzer bullet. The King/Fuller Trapdoor owed its success to current BPCR technology, and the fact that John Fuller shot the daylights out of it. It most certainly was NOT something that might have been at the Little Big Horn.

Anyway, I congratulate you on a good shooting Trapdoor. You really should bring it to Quigley, as a number of fellows do show up there with their Trapdoors, and seem to have a lot of fun. Shoot straight, rdnck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,095 Posts
Springfield Rifle

rdnck

Now I'm really confused. Wherein did I ever infer my ammo "is haphazard or thrown together"? Appreciate the compliment that it isn't though.

Also I find it confusing you contend there are no winning TDs and then tell of the one that won the Quigley. Most original TDs are limited in competition not by the rifles, accuracy or actions but by the sights. Those in pristine condition are collectors and to mount competative soule style sights would be a sin. However that may change with the quality of the Pedersoli's now available. Also, over the years I have read of several TDs that do well at BPCR silhouette matches. As to my rifle, you apparently didn't pay attention to my brief description of it on the other thread. It is not in original configuration and would not be eligeable to compete in the TD matches you mention.

My rifle, original action and barrel, was restocked into a "Sporter stock with a pistol grip". The tumbler was modified by Shaver to a 2 lb pull with a recut sear notch reducing the lock time 1/3, I mounted a Pedersoli long range tang sight (bedded in the stock on top of pistol grip) and it has a spirit level Lyman aperture front sight with several inserts. I shoot a load of 68 gr Goex Cartridge with a 500 gr Rapine bullet. Gee, with the exeption of the barrel that sounds an aweful lot like how John Fuller set his rifle up. The fact that Fuller used "current BPCR technology" is not relevant becuase he did not have and original barrel. His use of "current BPCR technology" worked quite well because with the exception of the action that was what he was shooting, current technology.

Don't know if I've shot the daylights out of my rifle but I have shot it a lot, enough to know that some "current BPCR technology" isn't any better than what they were using over 100+ years ago. You might want to read Garbe's editorial in the current "Black Powder Cartridge News" wherein he discusses the thought that many think "current BPCR technology" is superior to old. His last sentence on the subject sums it up pretty well, "At best, we just hold our own."

This is especially pointed since I'm talking about what works in original TD barrels which is what MikeC asked for. He did not ask for what works in modern barrels. Mike did not ask for something to go win at Raton, The Quigley or even a BPCR silhouette match with, he just asked for something that would shoot good in his TD. I told him what will work very well in his TD without a lot of additional "witchcraft" that more than likely won't provide any additional accuracy in his TD. The fact that the use of the additional witchcraft is benificial to you or any of the multitude of match shooters who are using "current BPCR technology" is not relevant to what Mike wanted.

Rdnck, your second sentence in your last responce states that very well. You said; "Your loads for the Trapdoor are designed to work in the Trapdoor, and they do that." That's exactly what Mike wanted. So what's the problem????

BTW; At The Little Bighorn there was at least one Officers Model, an infantry M1873, several Remington Rolling Blocks and Sgt Ryan did some outstanding work with his Sharps. Not to mention the variety of rifles the Indians had. Perhaps the predecessors to all of our rifles were there, eh?

Larry Gibson

rdnck said:
LMG--You are right, we are not really on the same page. Your loads for the Trapdoor are designed to work in the Trapdoor, and they do that. An undersized nose and an action that cams a bullet through the fouling in the throat will shoot an extended string, and a hollow base bullet does not have a tendency to foul the throat as much as does a flat based bullet.

However, for you to infer that the ammo you are shooting is haphazard or thrown together is less than totally candid. You are paying particular attention to a number of factors that regulate the performance of your ammo, and it has been developed to work in a specific rifle. You are not shooting junk ammo, anyway you cut it.

Be that as it may, and as well as your Trapdoor loads work in your Trapdoor, I doubt that your rifle and ammo are accurate enough to shoot Master class scores in the NRA BPCR venue. If the Trapdoor rifle and ammo system was accurate enough to do the job, with or without a blow tube, you would see them on the line competing in silhouette matches. I don't know of a single competitor that shoots one on a regular basis. There are a couple of AA class shooters that bring one out every now and then at Mexia, but as far as shooting good scores with one, I have yet to see it.

John Fuller won Quigley a couple of years ago with a Trapdoor built by John King. I was there, saw the rifle, got beat by it, and talked to Mr. Fuller for over an hour. THIS Trapdoor was hardly a Trapdoor in the real sense of the word. Badger Match barrel, Sporter stock with a pistol grip, titanium firing pin, double set triggers, and MVA long range Soule rear sight and a spirit level windage adjustable sight on the front. Load was 68 grains of Goex 2f and a Lyman 480 grain Schmitzer bullet. The King/Fuller Trapdoor owed its success to current BPCR technology, and the fact that John Fuller shot the daylights out of it. It most certainly was NOT something that might have been at the Little Big Horn.

Anyway, I congratulate you on a good shooting Trapdoor. You really should bring it to Quigley, as a number of fellows do show up there with their Trapdoors, and seem to have a lot of fun. Shoot straight, rdnck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Trapdoors plinking and BPCR

Been following this thread with interest. While one sides says that us BPCR shooters are using witchcraft to make these guns shoot?

Both types shoot bp loaded ammo, it appears thats where it ends.

Most BPCR serious shooters use this soo called witchcraft to produce excellent quality ammo and this in turn produces some excellent accuracy at most distances. Case in Point is this past summer at Raton, first 5 shots for record at 800 yards in the Creedmoor match went into a 10 tall by 13 inch wide group. After the wind came up it but my point is excellent quality ammo and some attention to a shooting regimin is requried to get that kind of accuracy.

I think thats what the rdnck is trying to point out here. What works great in a trapdoor with bp loads most likely will not fair well in other BPCR type rifles at all.

Rdnck is a master class Silhouette shooter and knows what it takes to make those kinds of scores and the Accuracy to attain those scores in the challange of BPCR Silhouette. I think he is trying to impart that it takes some doing to get REAL Accuracy out of any BPCR type of rifle.

However in closing a fellow with the trapdoor thinks its that accurate should come to one of several matches in MT or WY where real accuracy is required to place let alone win a rifle match and the proof is in the shooting. Its easy to say that you have really good loads and dont need a bunch of hokey stuff to make your rifle shoot, and down talk folks that use the same stuff, its another to prove it on the field of competiton. And we know the so called witchcraft is working due to the level of accuracy that its achieving on the ranges in matches.
Right now your accuracy and claims are a real unkown quality.

Come to the Quigley or the Wasserburger match in Wy and prove it.

Kenny Wasserburger
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,095 Posts
Re: Trapdoors plinking and BPCR

Now Kenny

I never said the 'witchcraft" didn't work, it does. I never said I never used any of the "witchcraft", I do. What I said was I've found most of the "witchcraft" to be unecessary to get usable loads and even the best accuracy from TDs. Particularly (I think I've said it several times now)with the Wolf service duplication loads or the Wolf modified technique match loads I use.

The use of "witchcraft' is very useable and of proven benifit in match type rifles on clean sterile ranges. Use the stuff myself with rifles that can benifit from it's use on ranges. Using it with original TDs and service bullets is akin to match prepping cases and using benchrest loading techniques when loading for a rack grade M1. Some of the steps are needed and produce quality ammo the rifle is capable of using but most of the bench rest loading techniques are wasted. Don't hurt doing them but you're not gaining anything from their use.

Now rdnck's shooting ability isn't in question here nor is his ability to produce fine BP cartridges been questioned by me. However don't think that since I haven't made Quigley or Raton that I can't shoot. Check the NRA records and you'll see I'm a Master class shooter at HP in both regular (200-600 yards) and long range (660 -1000 yards). I didn't get that by flappin my jaws. I never laid claim to being the worlds greatest shot, BPCR silhouette or otherwise as some here have. One thing I've learned over the years shooting various types of competitions is that just 'cause you're good at one discipline and another fellow hasn't shot that discipline doesn't mean he can't clean your clock. Strange that BPCR silhouette became the deciding criteria in this thread as silly me thought MikeC just wanted a load for the Lee 400 gr M1873 bullet that would shoot well in his TD. However, I know several places halfway between here and there where we can shoot at least a thousand yards or as far as you'd care. Nice to see you're up to challenging me to play your game, are you up to playing mine?

But back to the thread. What MikeC asked for was loads for his TD with 400 gr Lee HB bullets. That's what I provided, what works in TDs. I did not "talk down folks that use the stuff" becuase I use it too, in rifles that need it. Fact is TDs don't, they were designed to shoot quite well without it, particularly the use of a blow tube (isn't this what's really got rdnck's dander up? That I say with proper loads a blow tube isn't necessary with a TD).

Interesting article in the current Black Powder Cartridge news by Dick Swanson on his taking his Sharps 45-70 silhouette rifle to Africa hunting. He took the same load he uses for silhouette, a 425 gr Brooks bullet (a nice tight bore riding nose), 4 gr of 4F with 58 gr Goex 2F on top in Remington cases. He claims 1 1/2 MOA off the bench. Not a lot of "witchcraft there but some. Seems he had his trials and tribulations. I'll let him tell it; "...I hammered him right at the bend of the shoulder. He went down, which was unusual, and I immediately tried to cram another round in the chamber. Notice "tried" (see mistake #2, again!). The nose- ride bullet wouldn't chamber! PANIC! Now, a frantic blow tube and slobber on the next bullets nose and I was able to cram it in. I don't know how long all that eject, blow, slobber and reload took but...." He goes on to state when explaining the mistakes made and lessons learned; "The other important point about bullet selection is that there is not always time, or opportunity, to blow and clear the lead so a non-bore riding nose design would certainly be a characteristic for my selection." So you see it's not just me that has reason not use or reccommend the use of some of that "witchcraft".

Now what does all that have to do with MikeCs request? Well MikeC asked about TD loads for the Lee 459-405HB bullet. That bullet just happens to be a duplication of the M1873 bullet, i.e. a non-bore riding bullet. It was designed that way, so it would chamber each and every time regardless of the BP fouling of the lead. No need to blow into the lead to soften the fouling so the cartridge will chamber as it's going to anyway. Thus blowing in a tube or slobbering on the bullet isn't needed, just what I told MikeC. Seems you guys are having a hard time figuring that out. Did you ever think there might be a BP cartridge life other than BPCR silhouette?

However, perhaps I misunderstood what MikeC wanted for his TD. Maybe MikeC doesn't want ot blow through a tube after each shot. I don't know but I gave him the fact that he doesn't have to. It's not needed and won't be of benifit with that bullet with the loads I gave him or ones out of Wolf's book, but if he wants to that's ok with me. There, I said Mike could blow, now are you guys happy.

Larry Gibson

Kenny Wasserburger said:
Been following this thread with interest. While one sides says that us BPCR shooters are using witchcraft to make these guns shoot?

Both types shoot bp loaded ammo, it appears thats where it ends.

Most BPCR serious shooters use this soo called witchcraft to produce excellent quality ammo and this in turn produces some excellent accuracy at most distances. Case in Point is this past summer at Raton, first 5 shots for record at 800 yards in the Creedmoor match went into a 10 tall by 13 inch wide group. After the wind came up it but my point is excellent quality ammo and some attention to a shooting regimin is requried to get that kind of accuracy.

I think thats what the rdnck is trying to point out here. What works great in a trapdoor with bp loads most likely will not fair well in other BPCR type rifles at all.

Rdnck is a master class Silhouette shooter and knows what it takes to make those kinds of scores and the Accuracy to attain those scores in the challange of BPCR Silhouette. I think he is trying to impart that it takes some doing to get REAL Accuracy out of any BPCR type of rifle.

However in closing a fellow with the trapdoor thinks its that accurate should come to one of several matches in MT or WY where real accuracy is required to place let alone win a rifle match and the proof is in the shooting. Its easy to say that you have really good loads and dont need a bunch of hokey stuff to make your rifle shoot, and down talk folks that use the same stuff, its another to prove it on the field of competiton. And we know the so called witchcraft is working due to the level of accuracy that its achieving on the ranges in matches.
Right now your accuracy and claims are a real unkown quality.

Come to the Quigley or the Wasserburger match in Wy and prove it.

Kenny Wasserburger
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Springfield Rifle

LMG--I think I said early on in this discussion that there are some whacky loading procedures being used in BPCR. Mr. Swanson and his load are a classic example, and from your description of his load, I would say that he is not only asking for fouling trouble, he is begging for it. He deserved what he got in Africa.

I hunt with my BPCR load, and DO NOT carry a blow tube in the field. I can in fact load and shoot a dozen or more consecutive shots with perfectly acceptable hunting accuracy with my bore riding bullet, and without the use of a blow tube. If Mr. Swanson is a BPCR shoother worth his salt, I would expect him to be able to do the same.

While my silhouette load is perfectly serviceable in the hunting field, and delivers very good hunting accuracy, it does not deliver minute of turkey results without the use of a blow tube. If you can hit turkeys with your Trapdoor without the use of a blow tube, my hat's off to you. If you can't hit AT LEAST 7 out of 10 on a consistent basis, then your rifle and load need more work to be considered a truly accurate BPCR. Shoot straight, rdnck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,095 Posts
Springfield Rifle

rdnck

I bow to your all knowing and wise words of wisdom, and obviously the last words of wisdom on BPRC. Your obviously right, if a BPCR isn't any good on turkeys then it just isn't any good, for any purpose. I guess Swanson's 1 1/2 MOA and my 1 1/2 MOA loads wouldn't be any good on turkeys, after all you say so, therefore we must not be able to hit much. For my edification, could you tell me what size group, of how many shots, I'd have to shoot, at what distance, from what position to determine if I could hit said turkeys. I'm asking about load testing, not shooting a match here, as the question seems to be the accuracy potential of the loads. I could be wrong again though, maybe you do your load testing during a match. I don't but then what do I know. I'd be glad to shoot a few groups at turkey distance, even at a turkey target, to find out.

Just goes to show I wasn't born smart, **** I had to go to school for it. I like learnin' more everyday. Maybe someday I'll know everything.

Larry Gibson



rdnck said:
LMG--I think I said early on in this discussion that there are some whacky loading procedures being used in BPCR. Mr. Swanson and his load are a classic example, and from your description of his load, I would say that he is not only asking for fouling trouble, he is begging for it. He deserved what he got in Africa.

I hunt with my BPCR load, and DO NOT carry a blow tube in the field. I can in fact load and shoot a dozen or more consecutive shots with perfectly acceptable hunting accuracy with my bore riding bullet, and without the use of a blow tube. If Mr. Swanson is a BPCR shoother worth his salt, I would expect him to be able to do the same.

While my silhouette load is perfectly serviceable in the hunting field, and delivers very good hunting accuracy, it does not deliver minute of turkey results without the use of a blow tube. If you can hit turkeys with your Trapdoor without the use of a blow tube, my hat's off to you. If you can't hit AT LEAST 7 out of 10 on a consistent basis, then your rifle and load need more work to be considered a truly accurate BPCR. Shoot straight, rdnck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
BPCR Accuracy

LMG--There are lots of guys shooting BPCR and enjoying themselves that don't have rifle/load combinations that are accurate enough to play the game a with a reasonable expectation of being able to win, on occasion.

No one will shoot MOA or 1 1/2 MOA all the time. Range and atmospheric conditions will prevent this from happening, and how well your spotter is able to deal with these conditions will determine who wins or loses a match more often than not.

Having said that, here are the guidelines I have set for my loads and rifles. I expect to be able to produce these on my home range in my back yard with good conditions 80% of the time, shooting prone off cross sticks, AT THE SILHOUETTES I SHOOT IN A MATCH. If I can do it in practice at home, then I will be competitive at a match.

Chicken, 219 yards, or 200 meters---3 inches or less

Pig, 327 yards, or 300 meters---3 to 3 1/2 inches extreme spread with 2 1/2 inches or less vertical dispersion

Turkey, 424 yards, or 385 meters--4 to 6 inches extreme spread with 3 1/2 inches or less vertical dispersion.

Ram, 547 yards, or 500 meters--5 to 8 inches extreme spread with 2 to 4 inches of vertical dispersion.

Larry, lots of guys that shoot casually think that they have accurate rifles, and have a lot of fun, and that really is the bottom line--are you having fun with your rifle. Strange as it may seem, I don't really LIKE silhouette as much as I enjoy other forms of shooting, gong shoots such as Quigley, for instance. BUT, if it was not for the silhouette game and the attendant requirement for a very high level of accuracy to be truly competitive in that venue, these rifles and loads would not have evolved to the level they have. If it were not for silhouette, none of us would be shooting as well as we are, and if you or anyone else is not shooting silhouette, you don't really understand where the bar of performance with a black powder cartridge rifle rests. Hope this helps, rdnck.
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top