[Varmint Hunter]

In my search for a new muzzleloader I noticed that there is quite a difference in opinion as to the maximum recommended charge for several common muzzleloaders. Today I called T/C and asked SPECIFICALLY what each of their muzzleloaders was rated for. Here is what they said:

ONLY the 205x50 Magnum Encore rifle is rated for 150gr of Pyrodex. They also told me that it is also rated for the same charge of 777.

NONE of their other muzzleloading rifles are rated for more than the traditional 100gr charge. Not the Encores, not the Omega's and not the new Triumph. They are aware that shooters do use charges above T/C's blessigs but they do not reccomend it.

What do you use in your T/C muzzleloader?????????????

 

[Keith Lewis]

You talked to and idiot. My Omega owners manual says different.

 

[AndyHass]

Straight from T/C:
OMEGA™ GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS:
CALIBER: .50 Caliber
IGNITION: 209 Shotgun Primer (sealed pivoting breech)
BARREL: 28" w/Quick Load Accurizer™ Muzzle System
RIFLING TWIST: 1 in 28" Twist for sabots and conical bullets
OVERALL LENGTH: 42"
WEIGHT: 7 lbs. (approximately)
SIGHTS: Adjustable metal rear sight with Fiber Optic inserts; metal ramp front sight with Fiber Optics.
TRIM: Sling Swivel Studs
STOCK: Composite or Laminated Buttstock and Forend.
EXTRA FEATURES: Drilled and tapped for scope mounts
LOADING: Accepts magnum charges of up to 150 grains of FFG black powder or Pyrodex® equivalent (or 3 of the 50 Grain, 50 Caliber Pyrodex® Pellets).


If you recorded who you talked to, you should call back and report them to their manager if they really told you that. All of their inlines are rated to 150 grains.

 

[quickdtoo]

As Keith said, you must have talked to someone that was misinformed, as he also said, the Omega has 150gr loads listed in the manual, as does Triumph, Black Diamond and Black Mtn.

Tim

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Omega_Muzzleloader_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/TC_Triumph_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Black_Diamond_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/noncurrent/Black_Mountain_Magnum_Loads.pdf

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Actually, I may have spoken to 2 idiots. The first women gave me such confusing answers that she may not have known the differnce between an Encore pistol and Encore muzzleloader rifle. She insisted that the 209x50 Magnum had a 15" barrel. :

Eventually, she put another woman on the phone who answered all of my questions. : :'(

For those of you who KNOW; what is the difference between an Encore muzzleloader and a 209x50 Magnum Encore muzzleloader? If they both take 150gr charges; what makes the magnum version a magnum?

While I'm at it; has anyone tried 150gr equivelent of loose propellant, rather than 3 - 50gr equivelent pellets, in their T/C muzzleloader? If so; what where the results?

 

[quickdtoo]

I've only shot near max loads of both 2f and 3f 777 in a couple Black Diamonds, which by the way is less(127.5gr) than 150gr since 777 loads have to be reduced 15% by volume. Accuracy was better with 110-120gr with the Powerbelts I shoot.

Tim

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/loadnote.php

Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as black powder. To duplicate a black powder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%.[/color]

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Unless I missed it, I don't see any info in the Triumph manual that suggests that you can use 150gr charges. It is listed in the others, so, unless I missed it I can only assume that there is a reason that T/C ommited it for this rifle.

I'm particularely interested in their loading recommendations for the Encore Pro-Hunter ML.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Tim,

You lost me with that one. Hodgdon does not say that a maximum charge of 777 is 15% less than BP. It says to use them at the same volume but to expect increased velocities. A 15% reduction will get you the same velocity as BP, if that is what your looking for.

After reading their web site, it would appear that 150gr of 777 could be used in a gun that is rated for 150gr of BP. Interesting because there doesn't seem to be many people who would use a 150gr charge (loose, not pellets) of 777 in a gun that could utilize 150gr of BP.

 

[quickdtoo]

Unless I missed it, I don't see any info in the Triumph manual that suggests that you can use 150gr charges. It is listed in the others, so, unless I missed it I can only assume that there is a reason that T/C ommited it for this rifle.

It's on page 55.

 

[quickdtoo]

For loose powder, a max load of BP is 150gr, a load equal to that of 777 is 127.5gr. Using three 50gr 777 pellets isn't the same tho, so don't be confused by that.

Tim

 

[Redhawk1]

Varmint Hunter, please do not use 150 gr. of loose triple7. It is on the Hodgdon site. 110 to 120 is what you want to use as an equivalent to three triple7 50 gr. pellets. Trust us or call Hodgdon yourself.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

RedHawk,

I believe you guys, thats why I post here. I am, however, quite surprised that the manufacturers (guns, powder, etc) aren't crystal clear about all of this. Quite frankly, T/C's own customer service people gave completely incorrect information that was refuted by the links that you guys provided.

I'd be amazed if no one unknowingly put 150gr of loose Pyrodex or 777 in one of the newer rifles which suggest 150gr maximum charges.

And no one seems to know (including T/C) what the difference is between their Encore ML rifles and their 209x50 "Magnum ML rifle. Making an intelligent choice isn't made any easier by all of this.

Either way, I am leaning toward the Encore Pro-Hunter ML.

 

[alsaqr]

"110 to 120 is what you want to use as an equivalent to three triple7 50 gr. pellets."

Yes, i know that is what the manufacturer says. But it is not true. This is my post from another website.

"In the October issue Rifleman magazine announced the results of testing of black powder and the black powder substitutes. Bryce M. Towsley attached a pressure strain gauge to the Knight .50 caliber Knight KRB rifle that was used in the testing. The gun has a 27 inch barrel. The Hornady 250 grain SST bullet and sabot were used in the testing.

Two things stuck out at me:

1. The power of Swiss brand black powder. This stuff is really powerful: 2,065 fps with a 150 grain charge.
2. The fact that there is really not a dime's worth of difference in the power of Pyrodex RS, Pyrodex Select, and Triple Seven.
Velocity of 150 grain charges of Pyrodex granular:

1. Pyrodex RS: 2,139 fps.
2. Pyrodex Select: 2,175 fps.
3. Pyrodex Triple Seven: 2,166.

Velocity of 100 grain charges of Pyrodex granular:

1. Pyrodex RS: 1,850 fps.
2. Pyrodex Select: 1,860ps.
3. Pyrodex Triple Seven: 1,961 fps.

Velocity of 3, 50 grain Triple Seven pellets.

Pyrodex Triple Seven pellets: 2,106 fps.
The 3, 777 pellets gave a higher pressure reading than 150 grains of granular 777.

Two of the new Triple Seven Magnum pellets gave a velocity of 1,850 fps, the same as a 100 grain charge of Pyrodex RS.

So much for the claim that Triple Seven granular is X percent more powerful that the equivalent in 777 pellets."

 

[str8shooter48]

Maybe the T/C people let the Smith & Wesson people take over customer service duties. ??? and they know very little about muzzleloaders. ;D

 

[Varmint Hunter]

alsaqr,

Very interesting info you provided. It brings up as many questions as it answers. : Just when everyone has me convinced that you can't use 150gr of 777 granular in a modern Ml you site a test that not only uses 150gr charges (loose) but found that it produced less pressure than the 3 pellets that are commonly used.

I checked Hodgdon's web site and didn't see any suggestion that 3-50gr pellets of 777 was an appropriate charge in any gun. Their "magnum" 777 pellets info does indicate that you should never use more than 2. I've heard that the magnum pellets were 75gr equivalent charges but Hodgdon doesn't say that.

Why are the manufacturers so vague? People are liable to make mistakes.

"The more I know - the more I know I don't know" ;D

 

[Redhawk1]

alsaqr, I doubt they used 150 gr. of triple7 powder. I don't care what you posted here, but if you actually weighed out 3 triple7 pellets it would weight the same as 120 gr. of loose triple7 by volume, that my friend is what equivalent means.
I don't recommend anyone shoot 150 gr. of loose triple7 powder, or pyrodex. Now if you want to shoot Goax black powder, then by all means use 150 gr. by volume. Yes Swiss BP is more powerful than Goex or Elephant brand black powder

 

[alsaqr]

"alsaqr, I doubt they used 150 gr. of triple7 powder."

Yes, we all know that B/P and B/P substitutes are measured by volume.
The man tested 150 grains of granular 777 by volume. Black powder substitutes are measured by volume equivalent of B/P: Not by weight and not by weight equivalent of 777 pellets.


Lots of folks shoot 150 grains of Pyrodex by volume: i am no longer one of them. According to your avatar you are an NRA member. Get out your copy of Rifleman magazine and read that article.

 

[Redhawk1]

alsaqr, I found my issues and read it, and they say they used 150 gr of triple7. All I know is what the Hodgdon site says and what T/C recommends and that is what I stick with, that is a good way of keeping yourself out of trouble. But this post is asking about the Encore not the Knight KRB. Go to the Hodgdon web site and read the triple 7 warning about the 15% decrease if loose powder is used. Also they used a 245 gr. Hornady SST bullet not a 250 gr.

 

[Wolfhound]

The last information I have is that T/C still does not allow more than 100 gr of loose Triple Seven except in pellets.

 

[quickdtoo]

The last information I have is that T/C still does not allow more than 100 gr of loose Triple Seven except in pellets.

That's not what their owner's manuals show, they show loose powder loads to 150gr.

As Keith said, you must have talked to someone that was misinformed, as he also said, the Omega has 150gr loads listed in the manual, as does Triumph, Black Diamond and Black Mtn.

Tim

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Omega_Muzzleloader_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/TC_Triumph_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Black_Diamond_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/noncurrent/Black_Mountain_Magnum_Loads.pdf

Here's some of the Omega data if you can't download the manuals...