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Discussion Starter #1
Many folks I have talked to seem to think that there are only two types of Christian churches...Catholic and Protestant.

I for one among millions don't subscribe to that assumption.

Independent Baptists for instance, do not care to be referred to as "Protestant"...
The term Protestant comes from the root word "protest"...indicating that at some point they "protested" and left the Roman Catholic Church.
Actually that is far from true...the long line of believers that are today's Baptists (and many non-denom local assemblies), never protested and left the Roman Church.....because thry were never in it !
Some may claim a kinship to the ancient Celtic church, but not the Roman Church...

Agreed ?
 

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Glow-
Need a little more clarification about the celtic church you are referring to and its origin.
In the light of what is understood at this point I would have reason to see that all came from the Line of Catholicism, be it roman, Eastern or Orthodox.
Certainly the reformers were of those who broke from the RC as well as the Independent Baptist, though I would agree that they are a pretty much convinced there is a string back to Christ which does not pass thru catholicism.
Blessings
 

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IRONGLOW. There ARE only 2 types of churches. The first, is a meeting place for the saints. The second, is a hospitol for sinners. I firmly believe in regular treatments. POWDERMAN. :D :D :D :D
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Powder;
Truly there is only one true church..the one Christ founded and it is only called Christian and consists solely of those who have accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior ...

William;
The (ancient) Celtic Church was present in Britain until about AD 539.
It was the church that was there for the ancient Britons.
Columba and Patrick were of that persuasion..the Roman church later claimed them..
The Romans left Britain in the fourth century AD...
The Celtic church was planted by missionaries from the Byzantine Church of the middle east...which was in turn started by some of the original apostles that headed east (Perhaps Thomas, or Bartholomew).
The Byzantine Church thrived in the middle east with no contact with the so called Orthodox or the Roman church.
In fact, the Byzantine copies of the Bible was so long seperated from the rest of the Christian world...that when they were finally compared side-by-side it was considered proof of God's promise that there was so very little variance between Bibles.
Curiously, in the very minor differences...the Byzantine version seems to have been kept more pure.
The Celtic church founded the church and monastary on the island of Iona (Scotland).
If there had been a true King Arthur...it would have been his church.

A couple links:

<www.spiritualitytoday.org/spir2day/853735woods.html>

<www.iol.le/~santing/History/Irish.htm>

OOPs!!
My links don't seem to be working..
Just do a google search for "Celtic Church" and you will find something.

Beware, there is a modern day Celtic Church that claims roots to the ancient Celtic Church...but that isn't what I'm talking about...
 

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IRONGLOW. You are of course correct. The meeting place for the saints referred to the churches some folks attend to be seen by others so everyone will know how Holy and Godly they are. The hospitol for sinners is the type of church most Christians attend to learn more about Jesus Christ. Understand now??? POWDERMAN. :D :D
 

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Well now, lets see. The Church, The Catholic (Not Roman) or Universal Church of which we are all a part is the original church, I agree. Though I guess I am picking at nits to say that was the original Catholic church.
This is a tough issue but since we are all a part of Christ, who is the bridegroom, it is hard for me to accept any church pre-dating the universal church--If I am being understood.
Yes, the scriptures from antiquity, from a lot of different cultures, are found to be the same, if not in exact wording, the same in thought, though almost all are the same in wording.
Good discussion.
Blessings
 

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A Brief History of the Baptists
by the late Norman H. Wells
The history of the ancient churches is very obscure. Much of the early recorded history was either lost or destroyed. A great part of the history that remains was changed to suit the interests of the Roman Catholic Church. All of church history has been involved in much controversy and was subject to the whims and fancies of each particular age.
In a very broad outline we want to look at the history of the church.

The First 300 Years of Church History

Jesus Christ, during His earthly ministry, founded the first church in Jerusalem in approximately the year 30 A.D.

This first church was commissioned to go forth preaching the gospel, winning the lost to Christ, baptizing and teaching the converts and establishing new churches.

On the pages of the New Testament we find the record of the growth of Christianity and the founding of many New Testament churches.

Nero, the Roman Emperor, blamed the Christians for the burning of Rome in 64 A.D. and began the first of ten persecutions the Christians were to receive at the hands of the Romans.

Despite all the persecution, Christianity grew. At the end of the first 300 years the religion of Jesus Christ was established all over the then known world. There were churches in every town and community.

The Progress of Error During The First 300 Years

In the first two centuries the individual churches rapidly multiplied and some of them became very large. The church at Jerusalem had possibly as many as 50,000 or more members!

These large churches each had several preachers or elders. Some of these bishops or pastors began to assume authority over smaller churches. This corrupted the original democratic policy and government of the churches and led to the kind of hierarchy we see in the Roman Catholic Church today.

In the first two centuries the false teaching of "baptismal regeneration" began to spread. This error led to infant baptism and many other errors.

It has to be remembered that these changes did not come about all in a day, nor within a year. They came about slowly and never within all the churches. Some of the churches vigorously repudiated these errors.

About the middle of the third century the lines were clearly drawn. Those churches that remained loyal to the Scriptures were now clearly separate from those that had gone into error and apostasy.

Constantine ruled as Emperor of the Roman Empire from 306 to 337A.D. and his reign was to mark one of the great turning points in church history.

During a battle in 312 A.D. Emperor Constantine believed he had a vision of a flaming cross and above it the words, "By this sign thou shalt conquer."

He decided to fight under the banner of Christ and Christianity came into favor in the Roman Government.

In 313 A.D. Constantine gave a call for all the churches to come together and pronounced himself as the head of the churches.

Many, but not all, of the churches came. The true churches would have no part in this error.

This hierarchy or body of church rulers, that Constantine formed was the definite beginning of the Roman Catholic Church. Many of the errors of Catholicism had already had their beginning but now they were organized into a definite system.

Constantine made "Christianity" the "State Religion." Up until this point the persecution of the Christians had been done either by Judaism or Paganism. Now came a change. Christians (in name) began using the law to compel all Christians to join the organization. The true churches that refused were persecuted.

The division was now complete. The true churches refused to line up with the errors of the "state church." The church of Constantine became what we know as Roman Catholicism. Baptists were never part of Roman Catholicism. They remained true to the Scriptures and rejected the error.

After the organization of the churches into a hierarchy and their acceptance as a "State Religion" the true, loyal churches that rejected this error were identified by various names.

It is not to be understood that each of these groups was entirely free from error or entirely embraced the truth. Through these groups can be traced the people called Baptists. In these groups is to be found the true church -- not in Catholicism.

Montanist ... Paulician ... Novationist ... Paterines ... Donatist ... Albigenses ... Anabaptists ... these were some of the names used to identify those who refused to identify with Rome.

The Dark Ages

The period from 426 A.D. to 1628 A.D. is called the "Dark Ages."

With the establishment of the new Catholic temporal power a bloody persecution began. Loyal, New Testament churches, by whatever name they were called, were hunted and hounded to the utmost limit by this new Catholic power.

The now established Catholic Church began a war of extermination upon all who opposed her.

It is reliably reported that 50,000,000 died of persecution during the Dark Ages.

During the bloody times of persecution, as Catholicism tried to exterminate the true churches, many of the false doctrines of the Catholic church of today began to take place.

The Inquisition 1198-1700

The Inquisition was instituted by Pope Innocent lII and perfected under Pope Gregory IX. It was a "Church Court" established by the popes for the trying and punishing of "heretics" ... a heretic being anyone who did not agree with Roman Catholicism. The lnquisition lasted for 500 years and was a time of indescribable horror.

During all this persecution Baptist churches continued to exist.

The Reformation

The conditions within the Catholic Church had become so corrupt that many voices were raised within the church in protest. Among these voices was that of John Wycliffe (1320- 1384), John Huss (1373-1415), Savonarola (1452-1498), Zwingli (1484-1531), John Knox (1505-1572), John Calvin (1509-1564), and Martin Luther.

The combined effort of these men, along with many others, brought about the Reformation.

All these Reformers started new churches. This was the beginning of Protestantism. All Protestant churches had their beginning in the period of the Reformation or since that time.

Baptists continued to exist through the Reformation as they had since the time of Christ. Since the Reformation the Baptists have had a glorious history.

copied
 

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motor, nice post, but don't all churches claim to be the one true church? The Egyptian Coptics seem to make just as good a claim as the Baptists, and the Catholics can make a good case that Jesus appointed Peter the first pope. Does it really matter? Or are we still just all a bunch of tribal heathens trying to impose our ideas on others? I don't know Him very well, but I don't think He approves of all this bickering between Christians.
As an example, a man who gave his life to the Lord, and his fellow men, died recently. A man who probably started the revolution to defeat godless communism. Finding a man with more influence over the course of modern history would be difficult. Is he less of a Christian than, say, a Baptist, because he was a Pope? Does not God have a place in heaven for him?
 

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motor:
Wonderful study. Loved the read.
Bit shocking comming from you, but the truth is the truth no matter what mouth speaks it.
I'm sure you remember my posts on Christian History. I still think, (not my original thought, I'm an amature) that organized religion is the Harlot spoken of in Revelation.
Ramrod.:
Study up on Christian History. Everything motor said is true.
Even if he is stirring the Catholic/Protestant Wars again!
From my amature studies of Christian History no other established church is more pagan influenced than the R.C.C.
No other church as been so aligned with political governements than the R.C.C.
In fact, the R.C.C. IS THE GOVERENMENT in many countries to this day.
Before and during the "PROTEST" tant movements the R.C.C. flat out murdred millions of heretics. An heretic was anyone they SAID was an heretic.(yes, friend, political enimeis of the governement were burned as heretics)
You think that the Pope, who is reported to be the living Christ on earth, that millions worship as a diety, is heaven bound?
Well, that's a stretch.
Hey, but what do I know?
The information is out there for YOU to find and read for youself.
After all, it's only your salvation and soul that is at stake.
The wonderful thing about living in the U.S.A. is that we have freedom of religion.
We, in fact, are free to BAN religion in public schools.
Ain't that a kick!?
 

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jeager106, studying is something I enjoy, but I don't have much to say to someone who would banish John Paul II from Heaven just because he is a Catholic Pope. Sorry, but I think God has a bigger perspective than you do.
 

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MOTOR. Great post Sir, thank you.
RAMROD. Agreed Sir. POWDERMAN. :D :D
 

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ramrod says,"Is he less of a Christian than, say, a Baptist, because he was a Pope? Does not God have a place in heaven for him?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

my friend, it don't matter what the Pope or anyone else calls themselves, if they are born again they have a place in Heaven..

I am a born again believer and it doesn't matter one iota that i call myself a Baptist, I'm going to Heaven when i die.. as far as the Pope or you or anyone else, it's not up to me to say whether they are going to Heaven..
The Pope was a good man but that's all he was a man and i sincerely hope he is in heaven and if he is it's not because he was the Pope , it's because he was born again.. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me."
 

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Discussion Starter #13
William;
You will note I referred to the Roman Church...because there can only be ONE catholic (universal) church...the one I spoke of that has no denominational name...but is composed of those believers that have been regenerated..no matter what their local body is called !
Ramrod;
Yes the Pope has a place in Heaven if he is born again..(John3: 1-7)
Vs. 7-17 go on to clarify WHY one must be saved...no matter what his local church is called..

Your statement..."just a bunch of heathens, trying to impose our ideas on
others."....I just don't agree with that statement at all...some may try to "impose" their ideas, but that is not the Scriptural way.
Surely you don't think that merely conversing about God and Godly things is "imposing" !
Beyond that, we are not to be overbearing...accepting Christ is a voluntary thing or it is not genuine...
If they don't want to hear of the great gift, we are to " shake the dust from our feet" and move on.
Noone comes to salvation except that the Holy spirit draws him...if he's not being drawn...there is no sense wasting our time...
Motor;

You post was very good..Norman Wells was spot on...

Although my wife (of 49 years) and I see eye-to-eye on almost everything...our biblical studies follow differing trails...
She likes prophecy...and I pursue the study of Church History.

At the moment, I am reading a history of the early church..written by Eusebius (AD 263-339).

His description of the early church parallels Wells...

I don't care for some bodies that rely too much on "tradition"....we are warned about relying upon " the traditions of men "...

After all...traditions are usually manufactured by men over the years...
 

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I am really enjoying this round table (pardons to Arthur) and hope it gets more in depth.
You folks are good.
Blessings
 
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