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All I know is what the gift of God gave to me.
He gave me the gift of knowing Him above and beyond whatever I had learned to that point in my wandering thru time.
All I know is He has given me a tremendous insight to His power and mercy and what He will do thru those that believe in Him and are willing to trust Him.
Do I control Him ? NO ! in the imperative, I know when He gives me the gift of knowing what His will is and what He will do---beyond that, I am powerless to demand.
I can ask, and I do, and , sometimes He says "yes" and sometimes there is no answer.
Does that make me great/full of wisdom/powerful/special/super spiritual ? No ! It makes me humble and terrified at the magnificence and purity of God.
Why do some not operate under this influence that God wants us to share ? With me, it was because I was taught that the gifts had passed. We were to trust in science and medicine as the gifts God gave us for all that we needed.
What I "KNOW" is that God still operates in a spiritual ways, thru man, His wonders to perform.
I surely am not special---on this point I will make a guarantee.
Blessings
 

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I agree, after Pentecost the power of the Holy Spirit was available to all who believe in fullness. Hence Christ was merely recognizing the limits man has without the power of the Holy Spirit operating in the life of the believer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Has anyone here done something greater than walking on water or raising the dead?
Any reader here do something greater than turning water into wine?

The works have to be greater, not lesser or equal?

I'd like to hear about it because the claims that I have heard of are highly subjective and then there are the 1900 or so years.

lc
 

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LC--there are reports from all over that are not spread thru mainline churches of folks being raised from the dead.
I was healed in a prayer meeting.
Did man do it ? No ! God did it. Man has never done it .
I guess that you are missing the point.
Are you looking for miracles to bolster faith that God still can ? There are such but you must examine them from reports from Chuches that still believe and trust God to still be in this business.
It is a hard thing to do when it has been denied for years by the reformed.
Look to the Catholic Church for records---they have many.
Blessings


PS---there is a movie out now. It is from the experience of a Baptist Pastor who was killed in a car wreck--went to Heaven and was raised by the Spirit of God.
I have his book and I have heard him speak. he is a pastor in a Baptist church here where I live.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
WL

I agree with you that miracles occur. I believe that and have a personal experience but miracles are not the point. The article doesn't point to a disbelief in miracles. I have seen claims written on threads here claiming that Christians are SUPPOSED to be doing greater things/works/miracles than Jesus. That is a different issue than God in His wisdom and timing and for His purpose healing someone.

For those who claim this as a major purpose of the Christian life where is it?
If it is to be a major portion of the life of the Christian why do not see these things recorded in the biographies of the prominent people of faith from the post Apostolic days to the early 1900's?
Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Whitfield, Muller, J C Ryle, Spurgeon, Schaeffer, Graham.
These are just a few of the very many people used by God. Their lives don't reflect this teaching and practice yet we look at them as men of deep and abiding faith.

I hear of and believe in miracles but that is a horse of a different color.
Who here is doing Greater works than Christ?

lc
 

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The ministry of our Lord was only a few years. I would say that 'Greater works' would be in scope and not in kind. The greatest miracle is a person becoming a born again believer, coming to life from death. Christ gave the gift of the Holy Spirit to His Disciples, what a great source, the Holy Spirit will be with every believer for ever.
 

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A Savior has come who has died, is risen and will return. A hearer of this accepts Christ. This is the greater miracle. Considering the lips from which the message of salvation comes, it is exponentially more so.

The human race deserves no salvation. God created man to demonstrate His love. God created, and it wasn't known how deeply He loved until He sent His Son to die for an unworthy, degenerate altogether unholy people.
 

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The question was greater works and salvation is the beginning.
Read works, not salvation for there are/is no work to salvation--it is a gift.
You have not because you do not ask and to ask you must believe and Trust. For years folks asked but did not trust the Lord to respond because the Holy Spirit stopped when the last Apostle died.
Again---Check out the written accounts of the Catholic Church.
I know, I know those did not count because the Protestants said miracles had ceased.
Blessings
 

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The word work was added to make the sentence flow. It should read "the works that I do shall he do also, and greater than these shall he do." The apostles did the same works as Jesus. They healed the sick and raised the dead. Yet Jesus says that those who believe him will do better. What is a greater thing than Salvation? The miracles were performed specifically to call attention to the fact that God was in their presence and was performing what was prophesied. Jesus performed great miracles. He performed great miracles for people who were not saved and the miracle did not cause salvation. Only one of the ten turned to thank Him. Thr Apostles performed miracles like Jesus. But a greater miracle is what is being talked about. What is it?

Simon Peter who denied Him three times before the cock crowed, would later preach a sermon at the Day of Pentecost where 3,000 were saved.

Christ died, is risen and will return. This causes men to be saved. This is the greatest miracle of all. All technicalities aside, disprove that as not and you have talked Christianity out of existence.
 

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An analogy could be made where there is wealthy father who wants to give his fortune to anyone who wants it. All they need to do is take the mans last name and he will adopt them into his family and great fortune. This family then seeks other people who want to be a member of it. The membership isn't exclusive. The father has instructed them to seek all people, wherever they are. They get up in the morning, brush their teeth, put on their clothes, and comb the countryside. They have studied the documents. They have talked with the attorneys. They take this to people. This is a work. The father has inspired them. The father has given them everything they need in order to carry out his instructions.

This is work. They bring the fathers willingness to bring them into his family door to door. The father has made it all possible. But nevertheless they carry his message. They walk out the fathers message in shoe leather.

I don't know about you friend, but the good news wasn't brought to my ear by a lovely old lady who was as pure as the driven snow. I heard about Jesus from a no good dirty no account. He didn't pine over the Bible with me, didn't tell me his favorite scripture, didn't do much. But I sure thank God for him. He did what no one else cared to do, not even good folks. And now that I am saved. So I wonder if it matters that some folks think this man worked or didn't work? That God just drove him to my door, without any consciousness on his part and whispered in his ear everything to say? I don't think so. I think God had been working on me a long time before that. Getting me ready. Then as only God can do, he made it possible for this man to be in my life to tell me about salvation. And I will be honest with you. Though the Lord has made real many things, most of the mysteries to this universe are still that to me. I don't have any more knowledge other than the positivity that my Creator made it possible for someone like me to be saved. He staked His entire reputation to that fact. That part means a great deal to me. That is the part that gives me peace and solice in this crazy world.

Why would God choose to use liars, cheaters and reprobates to carry His message to the world? because we know exactly what it is like to be unsaved. And because He is God. He chose the nation Israel not for their personal beauty and faith, but because they were the hardest and most unfaithful.

He can save you friend. Whoever you are. You are not beyond His love. Don't let the world tell you that. You may not be good, and THAT is the entire point.
 

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I guess it depends upon what one considers "works". He gave us the great commission, while he preached primarily to Jews in the immediate region of Israel, Judea and Samaria. .....Today the gospel has been preached around the entire world to all peoples.
 

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littlecanoe said:
Jesus told the disciples that after He went to the Father they would do greater works than Himself.

What were those works?

Lc

THIS:


And Jesus said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved!
 

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littlecanoe said:
Jesus told the disciples that after He went to the Father they would do greater works than Himself.

What were those works?

An interesting article considering these works:

https://www.gty.org/blog/B150918


Lc
Do you suppose, maybe, we do not know what truly transpired because God knows that some would have locked onto those feats to show that Jesus was not what he said.
I believe we know only what we know because that his God's way of controlling mankind's ability to ignore God and get full of himself instead.
 

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RIF
The analogy: "An analogy could be made where there is wealthy father who wants to give his fortune to anyone who wants it. All they need to do is take the mans last name and he will adopt them into his family and great fortune. This family then seeks other people who want to be a member of it. The membership isn't exclusive. The father has instructed them to seek all people, wherever they are. They get up in the morning, brush their teeth, put on their clothes, and comb the countryside. They have studied the documents. They have talked with the attorneys. They take this to people. This is a work. The father has inspired them. The father has given them everything they need in order to carry out his instructions.

This is work. They bring the fathers willingness to bring them into his family door to door. The father has made it all possible. But nevertheless they carry his message. They walk out the fathers message in shoe leather.

I don't know about you friend, but the good news wasn't brought to my ear by a lovely old lady who was as pure as the driven snow. I heard about Jesus from a no good dirty no account. He didn't pine over the Bible with me, didn't tell me his favorite scripture, didn't do much. But I sure thank God for him. He did what no one else cared to do, not even good folks. And now that I am saved. So I wonder if it matters that some folks think this man worked or didn't work? That God just drove him to my door, without any consciousness on his part and whispered in his ear everything to say? I don't think so. I think God had been working on me a long time before that. Getting me ready. Then as only God can do, he made it possible for this man to be in my life to tell me about salvation. And I will be honest with you. Though the Lord has made real many things, most of the mysteries to this universe are still that to me. I don't have any more knowledge other than the positivity that my Creator made it possible for someone like me to be saved. He staked His entire reputation to that fact. That part means a great deal to me. That is the part that gives me peace and solice in this crazy world.

Why would God choose to use liars, cheaters and reprobates to carry His message to the world? because we know exactly what it is like to be unsaved. And because He is God. He chose the nation Israel not for their personal beauty and faith, but because they were the hardest and most unfaithful." Fails in that Salvation is not a work and that man cannot give salvation .
I have said it many times; man does not work on commission and man cannot convict.
I agree that salesmanship has been a hallmark in some circles and it is recognized that some can induce responses--but, sometimes this salesmanship only produces members.
Greater works--to me--means more in abundance.
Christ was said to have done so many miracles that they could not all be reported.
The Reformed has done a great injustice to this portion of teaching by claiming that the gifts of the Holy Spirit died with the last Apostle.
That is just not true but the Holy spirit will not venture into a congregation where He is not accepted because it takes faith AND trust for the Holy Spirit to work.
The church I attend gives lip service to praying for healing.
Blessings
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Bob said:
littlecanoe said:
Jesus told the disciples that after He went to the Father they would do greater works than Himself.

What were those works?

An interesting article considering these works:

https://www.gty.org/blog/B150918


Lc
Do you suppose, maybe, we do not know what truly transpired because God knows that some would have locked onto those feats to show that Jesus was not what he said.
I believe we know only what we know because that his God's way of controlling mankind's ability to ignore God and get full of himself instead.

I would agree Bob. We do have the accounts of Christ's works, some of them. Raising the dead. Restoring sight. Metabolic disorders of bleeding healed. Restoring sight. Water into wine. Walking on water. Many today claim that these and similar things are what a Christian is to be doing based on this verse. However, I see a disconnect. I DON't see even these things being a benchmark measure much less "Greater Works".


This is not to be the focus. Personal experience and observation show me that such teaching harms the faith of many by pointing them away from abiding in Christ and seeking that relationship by badgering them to focus on actions. They never "do the greater works and are damaged deeply.


lc
 

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First---we do not see spiritual salvation, do we. We can hope but we do not KNOW and we had no part of it really. The Holy Spirit is the only one who plays a part in salvation and our part was because we were led to the right spot i time.
I just can't help but not understand how this is considered a work we perform.
I think that I would have to return to Jonah to use as an example.
We don't even perform the miracles much less own them.
Blessings
 

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littlecanoe said:
Mt, IG, RIF, RayS


I agree. The greater work is taking the message worldwide and seeing dead spiritual beings made alive. That is the greatest miracle


lc
No doubt John MacArthur believes the same, as well as anyone he would allow commentary on his web site , but MacArthur is a rabid cessationist.
Was your thought, of the OP, the continuation of Spiritual Gifts vs. Cessationism? Just curious.
 

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littlecanoe said:
Bob said:
littlecanoe said:
Jesus told the disciples that after He went to the Father they would do greater works than Himself.

What were those works?

An interesting article considering these works:

https://www.gty.org/blog/B150918


Lc
Do you suppose, maybe, we do not know what truly transpired because God knows that some would have locked onto those feats to show that Jesus was not what he said.
I believe we know only what we know because that his God's way of controlling mankind's ability to ignore God and get full of himself instead.

I would agree Bob. We do have the accounts of Christ's works, some of them. Raising the dead. Restoring sight. Metabolic disorders of bleeding healed. Restoring sight. Water into wine. Walking on water. Many today claim that these and similar things are what a Christian is to be doing based on this verse. However, I see a disconnect. I DON't see even these things being a benchmark measure much less "Greater Works".


This is not to be the focus. Personal experience and observation show me that such teaching harms the faith of many by pointing them away from abiding in Christ and seeking that relationship by badgering them to focus on actions. They never "do the greater works and are damaged deeply.


lc
It was a opinion supposition, nothing more but I see trying to pigeon whole the greater works to fit what some man/men wish it to be is also ignoring what Jesus actually brought by giving something doen over a thousand years ago more relevance that really matters.
At that you may be correct, Jesus only knows.
 
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