[lloyd smale]

Well for us to be a superpower like we are today we sure couldnt be split. IF so wed sure have to be allies and if you read some posts on here it would raise serious doubts as to if that would have happened. bottom line is both sides need each other. Without being united we most likely would be speaking a different language by now. Up north wed be paying WAY more for food and fuel and down south youd be pay WAY more for steel and manufactured goods. No matter which side won the war we needed to come back together. Who lost the war? It wasnt the south. It was the UNITED STATES! A war fought for the rich by the poor on both sides. A war fought by people that were LIED to on both sides. To make claims it would be better or worse are just that claims BS based on predudices. Nobody will ever know the answer. MY take on it is this. The south fought for independence. Something that in my opinion for what its worth is that wouldnt work for either side. the north fought to keep the country as one. Which is the only way we survive though times like the world wars. but again I cant prove that because its just speculation.

 

[CCSteveL]

Well for us to be a superpower like we are today we sure couldnt be split. IF so wed sure have to be allies and if you read some posts on here it would raise serious doubts as to if that would have happened. bottom line is both sides need each other. Without being united we most likely would be speaking a different language by now. Up north wed be paying WAY more for food and fuel and down south youd be pay WAY more for steel and manufactured goods. No matter which side won the war we needed to come back together. Who lost the war? It wasnt the south. It was the UNITED STATES! A war fought for the rich by the poor on both sides. A war fought by people that were LIED to on both sides. To make claims it would be better or worse are just that claims BS based on predudices. Nobody will ever know the answer. MY take on it is this. The south fought for independence. Something that in my opinion for what its worth is that wouldnt work for either side. the north fought to keep the country as one. Which is the only way we survive though times like the world wars. but again I cant prove that because its just speculation.

Just the fact that this thread is on here proves the split in our country. I was on a business trip to SC 10 years ago, the sales guy from MD who was driving got pulled over for speeding, of course the SC trooper asked for both our IDs, to which he responded after taking mine, "a couple of yankees", LOL.

 

[lloyd smale]

yup ive got to say ive NEVER heard someone derogatively called a johnny reb up here. Matter of fact the only place the war is even discussed is on fourms like this. Non issue what state your from. I served along side of GREAT people from near every state. Even some from california. Have to admit though there is some predudice agaisnt the south here too but its not what you think. I live about as far north in MI as you can get and every summer we have an invasions from the south of ignorant people that thinks this is there private park and its just one big federally owned playground. Ignorant sobs that bring there liberal views here and leave there trash on the beaches and back roads. Thing is when i say from the south id will freely admit that 1/2 of them are from the southern part of our own state. Its a split thing. Many buinessses love it because thats how they eat but most of the locals detest it. I often wonder how many of those campers and motor homes would invade this area if they actually knew how unwanted they are. but id say there probably more predudice against some liberal from detroit or lancing then there is someone from NC VA or TX. WHY? Because those libearls from southern 1/4 of michigan make this state blue.

 

[va rifleman]

What if the South won? Have no idea. All I know. My IFF doesn’t care if one is gay, black, brown, Northerner, Southerner, Buddhist or Baptist.

Team America, also know as MAGA is good enough for me.

 

[CCSteveL]

yup ive got to say ive NEVER heard someone derogatively called a johnny reb up here. Matter of fact the only place the war is even discussed is on fourms like this. Non issue what state your from. I served along side of GREAT people from near every state. Even some from california. Have to admit though there is some predudice agaisnt the south here too but its not what you think. I live about as far north in MI as you can get and every summer we have an invasions from the south of ignorant people that thinks this is there private park and its just one big federally owned playground. Ignorant sobs that bring there liberal views here and leave there trash on the beaches and back roads. Thing is when i say from the south id will freely admit that 1/2 of them are from the southern part of our own state. Its a split thing. Many buinessses love it because thats how they eat but most of the locals detest it. I often wonder how many of those campers and motor homes would invade this area if they actually knew how unwanted they are. but id say there probably more predudice against some liberal from detroit or lancing then there is someone from NC VA or TX. WHY? Because those libearls from southern 1/4 of michigan make this state blue.

Funny, a neighbors sister is married to a North Carolinian, she comes up from NC,in summers for visits. I've seen him once in 28 years. He freely states, that he doesn't like coming up North.

 

[lloyd smale]

Funny, a neighbors sister is married to a North Carolinian, she comes up from NC,in summers for visits. I've seen him once in 28 years. He freely states, that he doesn't like coming up North.

id bet its sure not like hes treated badly because hes from the south. Some people just like home. I spend 8 years in the south while in the service. I did like NC but ive got no calling to go back. VA? You couldnt pay me to go there. I was treated well in NC but it was because i was going home with a buddy i served with and being a yankee i was treated more like a novalty.

Everyone in that little town knew me and excepted me and in those years not to many wanted to tangle with me. But even then i sure shook my head a few times at some of the things i saw. It was a different world in the early 70s and id have to bet has changed at least some by now. Back then they had one bar in town and there was a dotted line drawn down the middle of it and black stayed on one side and whites on the other and they even had seperate bartenders. First time in that bar when it was my turn to order a round the bar owner told me Ill serve blacks but "I DONT SERVE YANKEES" a couple of the guys i was with showed him the error of his way in a not so comfortable way and he never said no again. matter of fact we drank together a few times after that night. It was a different world then the one i grew up in.

Ive never once seen anyone give any person from the south grief because he lived south of the mason dixon line. Maybe it happens in areas close to the mason dixon line like it TN or WV. but it sure doesnt happen in michigan. The only mention of that war other then on fourms like this was in history class in school. What boggles my mind is the south wont let that war go (at least some) and yet youll invite the Japs and germans to build factories in your states. Look at the atrosities they commited against your ansestors!! Make america great stickers right in the parking lot of a japanese toyota factory. But i guess everything's for sale for a price. Im going to bow out of this one now because i know from past threads its senseless to post sense when it comes to this.

 

[Graybeard]

"yup ive got to say ive NEVER heard someone derogatively called a johnny reb up here. "

That's OK Lloyd, you can call us that. We don't consider it derogatory at all and are proud of it so go ahead.

 

[CCSteveL]

id bet its sure not like hes treated badly because hes from the south. Some people just like home. I spend 8 years in the south while in the service. did like NC but ive got no calling to go back. VA? You couldnt pay me to go there. I was treated well in NC but it was because i was going home with a buddy i served with and being a yankee i was treated more like a novalty.

Everyone in that little town knew me and excepted me and in those years not to many wanted to tangle with me. But even then i sure shook my head a few times at some of the things i saw. It was a different world in the early 70s and id have to bet has changed at least some by now. Back then they had one bar in town and there was a dotted line drawn down the middle of it and black stayed on one side and whites on the other and they even had seperate bartenders. First time in that bar when it was my turn to order a round the bar owner told me Ill serve blacks but "I DONT SERVE YANKEES" a couple of the guys i was with showed him the error of his way in a not so comfortable way and he never said no again. matter of fact we drank together a few times after that night. It was a different world then the one i grew up in.

Ive never once seen anyone give any person from the south grief because he lived south of the mason dixon line. Maybe it happens in areas close to the mason dixon line like it TN or WV. but it sure doesnt happen in michigan. The only mention of that war other then on fourms like this was in history class in school. What boggles my mind is the south wont let that war go (at least some) and yet youll invite the Japs and germans to build factories in your states. Look at the atrosities they commited against your ansestors!! Make america great stickers right in the parking lot of a japanese toyota factory. But i guess everything's for sale for a price. Im going to bow out of this one now because i know from past threads its senseless to post sense when it comes to this

"yup ive got to say ive NEVER heard someone derogatively called a johnny reb up here. "

That's OK Lloyd, you can call us that. We don't consider it derogatory at all and are proud of it

"yup ive got to say ive NEVER heard someone derogatively called a johnny reb up here. "

That's OK Lloyd, you can call us that. We don't consider it derogatory at all and are proud of it so go ahead.

Proud of it?? Calling someone a "Yankee" in Fenway Park is NOT taken as a compliment

 

[Graybeard]

"Proud of it?? Calling someone a "Yankee" in Fenway Park is NOT taken as a compliment "

What, where is Fenway Park? I honestly don't know.

 

[va rifleman]

Fenway park is in Boston. Home of the Red Sox baseball team. Arch rivals of the Yankees who hail from New York.

Johnny Reb? A poor dirt farmer, who fought valiantly against overwhelmingly odds.

 

[Graybeard]

One of my favorite songs by one of my favorite singers. Thanks. I had to turn the speakers up and listen to it.

I had heard of Fenway Park but really had no idea where it was or that they were arch rivals of the Yankees. That's a NY team right?

I don't use the term Yankee derisively but just more as a distinction of folks from northern US as opposed to the south or west. Now damn yankee is a derisive term but only applied to yankees who come south to stay rather than to visit.

 

[lgm270]

Nonsense? The Germans built just one four engine bomber in 1944 which took off from Berlin, turned around 10 miles from New York city, and landed back in Germany that night. That was the delivery system, had it not been for a German physicist mis-calculation in the early 1930s which set their nuclear program back 1 year, they and not the US would have had the atom bomb. A U.S which would have broken off into different countries had the South won the war would not have had the resources to have supported Russia and Britain in their death struggles with Hitler, giving him the worlds first nuclear bomb. One could reasonably say that the fate of the world was decided on July 2nd 1863, by a Bowdoin college professor of languages, who ordered his exhausted and out of ammunition command to "fix bayonets" and led his men in a charge down little round top, which effectively was the turning point of the war.

Yes Nonsense. Even if the Germans could have destroyed NYC (a blessing in disguise), destroying one city in 1944 does not mean much more than that. By 1944 they'd been driven out of Africa, had been pushed back out of Russia and were collapsing on the Western front.

Blowing up NYC would have given them what? Nothing. It would not have given them the naval power first to invade and occupy Britain, without which any expeditionary force into the Western hemisphere would have been futile. It did not make up for the millions of German war dead which were by that stage of the war irreplaceable.

This pipe dream has been shown on TV as a documentary in support of the old "Germans wanted to rule the world" drivel for a long time. If they'd had the ability to do that, bombing Moscow or London would make much more sense than bombing NYC, especially in 1944.

You refused to address my other assertions, namely that if Hitler couldn't have crossed the English Channel in 1940 he could not have crossed the Atlantic Ocean.

Sending one plane on a lone mission, even if it happened, proves nothing and did not affect the outcome of the war. Even if Germany had the atomic bomb (which it did not) the destruction of NYC would not have effected the outcome of WW2 at that late date, for the reasons stated.

 

[CCSteveL]

Yes Nonsense. Even if the Germans could have destroyed NYC (a blessing in disguise), destroying one city in 1944 does not mean much more than that. By 1944 they'd been driven out of Africa, had been pushed back out of Russia and were collapsing on the Western front.

Blowing up NYC would have given them what? Nothing. It would not have given them the naval power first to invade and occupy Britain, without which any expeditionary force into the Western hemisphere would have been futile. It did not make up for the millions of German war dead which were by that stage of the war irreplaceable.

This pipe dream has been shown on TV as a documentary in support of the old "Germans wanted to rule the world" drivel for a long time. If they'd had the ability to do that, bombing Moscow or London would make much more sense than bombing NYC, especially in 1944.

You refused to address my other assertions, namely that if Hitler couldn't have crossed the English Channel in 1940 he could not have crossed the Atlantic Ocean.

Sending one plane on a lone mission, even if it happened, proves nothing and did not affect the outcome of the war. Even if Germany had the atomic bomb (which it did not) the destruction of NYC would not have effected the outcome of WW2 at that late date, for the reasons stated.

You missed my point...all you assert about Hitler being thwarted by England and the Soviets was due to American support of each. History said America entered the war in Dec of 1941, after Pearl Harbor. Truth was the American navy was running escort duty across the Atlantic in 1940 to ships leaving American ports loaded with arms and materials for each nation. FDR completely ignored congress and sold and supplied arms to countries at war without congressional approval. Classic example was giving American destroyers to the Bahamas, as opposed to giving them directly to England under "lend lease". As for the Soviets? Theres a great book called "Deathride - Hitler vrs Stalin" , with the facts of the war on the eastern front. We hear about the great soviet victory at stalingrad, in truth the offensive on the city was one of 4 soviet attacks on the German lines, with the other 3 thrusts repelled by the Germans with heavy soviet losses. In truth the soviets were defeated victors, so much so the damage to infrastructure and heavy casualties in WW2 caused by the Germans was a significant contributing factor in the collapse of the soviet union in the 1990s. As far as the original thread topic, none of the material support to the allies in WW2 would have been remotely possible had the south won the war.

 

[lloyd smale]

"yup ive got to say ive NEVER heard someone derogatively called a johnny reb up here. "

That's OK Lloyd, you can call us that. We don't consider it derogatory at all and are proud of it so go ahead.

you know the context i used that in. Just an example. Some of my lifetime best friends live in the south. biggest thing some here overlook is this wasnt a war between dirt farmers it was a war between the wealthy from both the north and south over wealth and the dirt farmers were just pawns to sacrifice. To me the endless bs over this war is not one bit different that the latest pile of bs some black congressmen calling to give blacks today reparation pay because there ancestors were slaves. There isnt a man alive today that was in that war that needs to apologize to on either side.

Now theres still MANY ww2 vets that have to watch american selling its soul to the japs and germans. As many of them south of that line as north. Wheres the outcry for them??? When we buy japanese products that profit the people that blew there leg or arm off or subjected them to a lifetime of nightmares from combat experiences or as pow's?? Seems no hard feelings are harbored against them. Heck we even give them a free pass on taxes if they build a factory.

This same nonsense will still be passed on 3 generations from now. that is if were not speaking a different language because we cant even get along as one country. We have SUCH A BIGGER PROBLEM with the division between conservatives and socialist in this country that needs to be our concern. Its time to put this one that happened 3 generations ago to bed. The south has rose again. It did MANY years ago. Its time conservatives from the north and south realize we are on the same side and there is no long a division line of any kind other then at the polls. The socialists just won the first battle of this war. Are we going to split ourselves with petty old fights or come together as one to fight them.

 

[CCSteveL]

Fenway park is in Boston. Home of the Red Sox baseball team. Arch rivals of the Yankees who hail from New York.

Johnny Reb? A poor dirt farmer, who fought valiantly against overwhelmingly odds.

The Confederacy- another example of "what were they thinking" on the first day of the war, not only are you outnumbered 5 to 1 in men, but material wise it's a joke. My home state of MA alone with already in place Rodman iron works producing naval and fort heavy guns, Alger foundry 30 miles away producers of field artillery, and the Springfield armory for small arms, produced more material from 1861 -1865 than all the arms factories in the south combined. Now figure in CT, home of Colt and NY home of Remington.

 

[lloyd smale]

well to that ill say theres many liberals that won the election saying trump? what were they thinking? What needs to be separated is the real reasons and the reasons those dirt farmers were lied to about on both sides. This wasnt a partiotic fight. It wasnt even about slavery. Its was about the rich wanting more riches. In that time there was no internet no tv heck a news paper was rare. Those soliders trusted the reason there officers gave them who took there orders from the generals who took there orders from politicians and the very rich. Probably not a single one of them cared about the blacks or about pride in the state they lived in. It was about MONEY AND POWER. The root causes of ALL wars.

 

[CCSteveL]

well to that ill say theres many liberals that won the election saying trump? what were they thinking? What needs to be separated is the real reasons and the reasons those dirt farmers were lied to about on both sides. This wasnt a partiotic fight. It wasnt even about slavery. Its was about the rich wanting more riches. In that time there was no internet no tv heck a news paper was rare. Those soliders trusted the reason there officers gave them who took there orders from the generals who took there orders from politicians and the very rich. Probably not a single one of them cared about the blacks or about pride in the state they lived in. It was about MONEY AND POWER. The root causes of ALL wars.

Robert E Lee had state pride. He was offered full command of the Union army, but couldn't fight against his home state of VA. As for slavery, Stonewall Jackson, was such a religious man, he broke his own state law by having a school for the children of slaves on his plantation to teach them how to read, just so the could read the bible.

 

[lloyd smale]

Robert E Lee had state pride. He was offered full command of the Union army, but couldn't fight against his home state of VA. As for slavery, Stonewall Jackson, was such a religious man, he broke his own state law by having a school for the children of slaves on his plantation to teach them how to read, just so the could read the bible.

I dont disagree with you. I do believe like most of you that slavery wasnt the real issue in this war. It was an excuse. MONEY was the real reason. The rich on both sides wanting to be richer. Slaves were used to this end but not just in the south.

 

[CCSteveL]

I dont disagree with you. I do believe like most of you that slavery wasnt the real issue in this war. It was an excuse. MONEY was the real reason. The rich on both sides wanting to be richer. Slaves were used to this end but not just in the south.

States rights vrs Federal govt. Issue still not resolved today....

 

[lloyd smale]

more like the rights of powerful state Politian's vs powerful federal Politian's. Look at Cuomo in NY today or gavin Newsome in CA. State power can be just as corrupt as federal power. We are a country, America. thats what comes first to me. I am an American that just happens to live in michigan. I didnt serve michigan i served the UNITED States of America. Country will ALWAYS come before state to me. Matter of fact theres three flags on my pole. Top is the American flag. Under it is a trump flag and under that one is a michigan flag. There is many problems caused by states rights. Gun control over and above what the federal laws are, welfare programs for the lazy, taxes are heavily levied in some states more then others, legalizing drugs above what the fed government laws say is illegal and some even heroin. Look at the abuses states have taken this covid shut down and mask thing to. remember when you praise states rights that your giving the keys to the state national guard to a governor like cuomo and your giving liberals like in CA the right to force there state into buying solar panels for there homes and going so far as to even force you to buy electric cars and that doesnt even include there insane gun laws. Truth of the matter is states rights are cheered by us when conservative state governents are in place. Most so when theres a democrat in office. Switch that around and have a liberal governor and someone like trump in place then everyone hates states rights. This is the case in the south as well as the north.