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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The object is not to build or upgrade to the best Tactical or target. It is to build/upgrade to a decent target to about 200 yards max.
Would you buy used or new---and why. .223/5.56 NATO.
Blessings
 

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i would buy a Mossberg MMR hunting AR....ready to go, add scope, will be an awesome shooter once the ammo is chosen for the intended purpose...i want one for myself....20 inch barrel and good reviews to me makes it a good rifle......
 

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You hear a lot of guys say their gun (pick a brand) is gold, the rest are garbage. Fact is, its hard to find a bad AR these days. For mostly target use at the range, I would look for a rifle with an 18 or 20 inch barrel, on the heavier side, without a grenade launcher cut out. A free floated forend helps with consistency.

My opinion, the Rock River Armory line offer a lot of bang for the buck. Feature rich, with match barrels and triggers, they offer a variety of models with 1 1/2 inch, or less accuracy guaranteed, in the $1000 range.

Lots of guys like mil-spec, and the various Colts are good guns, but don't get too stuck on "mil-spec". Its just a set of specifications set forth by the government for a particular rifle. Doesn't mean a "consumer grade" rifle cant be just as good for your intended use, or that better rifles, above and beyond mil-spec aren't out there as well. Wilson, LMT, and Baer come to mind. You can easely spend 4 or 5 K on some of these guns / scope systems, but really don't need to. Like anything else, you reach a point of diminishing returns. In todays market, about 1K should get you a nice rifle that will group 1 1/2 inch or less with good ammo. Don't expect that kind of accuracy with run of the mill green tip.

I would buy new. Prices are down these days, and it pays (saves $$) to buy something already equipped from the factory the way you want it from the get go. Lots of used stuff out there, but a lot of guys want to get close to retail for them, and you want to be careful you don't get stuck with one somebody abused with something like a bump fire stock, or built from parts, but did not do a very good job of it.

Manufacturers I have had owned, or shot a bit, and have had good luck with include:
Colt
Pre-Remington Bushmasters
Rock River
Stag
Armalite
BCM

Larry
 

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...."and why. .223/5.56 NATO.".....

No doubt the .223/5.56 NATO is a good caliber, but in the AR15 it has been demonstrated it is not the best in overall performance.

The best performing cartridge for the AR15 is the 6.5 Grendel: It is still supersonic at 200-300 yrds. It retains its energy better than the sacred .308, and it is as accurate (actually 'precise') as the .223/5.56 NATO. In the only area where it isn't better than the .223/5.56 NATO is price.

My poor AR15 in .223/5.56 NATO now lives inside the safe and only comes out when I have either a youngling or a small female as a shooting guest.

The 6.5 Grendel does everything the .223/5.56 NATO does, but better.
 

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they'd have to get a lot less expensive
before i'd buy one. i don't need one
right now, so that would make me
less receptive to a purchase.


w.l. what exactly was your goal in
looking to buy one ? strictly paper
punching, or the occasional varmint, or. . .?
 

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Stay away from a colt, they do not back their stuff anymore. I had a $1000 rifle with a very rough chamber, Colts customer service was very rude and actually hung up on me. The company that assembled it for them, bold ideas, would not answer repeated phone calls or emails. The chamber on that barel looked like it was cut with a reamer that had done a hundred chambers with no lube. I've taken close looks at a lot of chambers and have never seen one like that, even mosin nagants made when izhevsk was turning out 11,000 guns a day look like glass compared to this one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Just good target shooting Ranger.


Jparedes--223/556 NATO because of price. Not really interested in ballistics.


Thanks, Bigeasy, It is easy for me to get into upgrades. I guess that is the problem with my mind.


I have also been looking at the Ares scr---more of a traditional look. Google it and comment. Price is good. Don't care for the 16.5 in barrel. The pull is reported to be very hard. Rest seems like good.
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I have a Palmetto state arms in 556 and it is a fine little gun. So I ordered one from them in 308 and it is junk! I sent it back and they sent it back to me saying they had reamed the chamber, as near as I can tell they did nothing to the rifle except keep it three weeks and ship it back to me. Chamber is still rough as a cob! They must have gotten a bunch of junk from their supplier in the 308s. I see folks on utube saying the same thing I am saying 308 from them is nothing but trouble!
 

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As has been said, it's hard to purchase a bad one, but it can be done. ;) I would definitely take a hard look at a gas piston operated AR - they operate very clean & cool compared to a DI type action. You need to consider the twist rate, so if you want to shoot heavy bullets in the 69 to 77 grain weights, I'd recommend the 1:7 or 1:8 twist with the 1:7 getting the nod. If you will be sticking to light weight bullets then you'll be looking at 1:9 to 1:14 - my bolt actions are 1:12 and 1:14 and when I purchased my AR I wasn't given a choice of twist rates and had to settle for the 1:7. Shooting a 1:7 twist rate with a 52 grain bullet doesn't give me small groups - moving up to 55 grains I get around 0.6" groups using CFE223, other powders don't play as well. Shooting close to that half inch magic number for me takes a 30X target scope and a very good after market trigger - anything else shoots larger groups. ;) Free floating forearm with a smooth slim rail and either a 16 or 18 inch barrel should be considered as well. The only upgrades needed/wanted will probably be limited to a scope/red dot and a good trigger such as the Geissele, but there are others.

There's nothing cheap about good upgrades - like if you go with a red dot - there's another cost associated with it, it's called a raiser and that will cost $100 or so.


I googled that Ares SCR - different looking for sure. Myself, I like the M4 look with the collapsible stock but each to their own. The twist rate is 1:9, so you'll be good for maybe 50 grain - for sure 52 grain to maybe 69 grain. I know several guys with the 1:9 and they can handle 69 grain bullets well but not 75 or 77. There are a few that don't shoot 69 grain very well at all. Most will also shot 50 grain well but some don't - I guess it's just luck of the draw.


If you like the look of the Ares SCR, maybe a Ruger American model might fit your fancy for looks and accuracy.
 

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Rock River offers excellent mid range equipment that is hard to beat for the money. The high dollar big name offerings don't offer much of a return for the many times over higher price tag. I prefer to assemble from parts from the beginning. You end up with a better result for much less money and you learn your equipment from the inside out at the same time. Nobody needs to spend big money for a target shooter. Save that money to put toward more ammo so you can actually enjoy the end product.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Old Syko
Your commentary is right on---well it is right on for those with the mind of a mechanic. I have problems with lug nuts.
I wish that I had more of the aptitude but, unfortunately, it is not in me.
I am just gonna have to let someone who don't bugger up these things do it.


At first heat---the SCR seems like the dream child. When the heat cools down---well---it is a new product and I don't care to be the first one on the block. The barrel and trigger are hard to overcome---in my mind.
Boy--it is a good looking idea though.


I am going to talk to a fellow at Tactical Arms, here in Houston, Thursday.


This is closer than I have ever come to putting out this fire.


5 Hole----for some reason--I have always leaned towards heavier bullets and I like your commentary.
 

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Mr. William,
I have two AR's right now. And one of the 80% lower that is waiting for me to put an upper on it.
The First AR is an Armalite M15A2. Just your basic 20" AR with a Handle sight that I use for target shooting and have used for three gun style shoots.
The open sights work well for me and I have had no problem shooting gongs and targets at 200 yards with it.

The Second is a SIG M400 E- 16" flat top rifle. Came with a fixed front sight and a flip up rear and a collapsible stock.
I have removed the flip up sight and gone to a fixed rear sight and have removed the collapsible stock and replaced it with a MOE solid stock.
The collapsible stock moved a little and since I have never parachuted, Jumped out of an APC, or have little kids that we need to fit the rifle to, the 3" that the stock will fold does nothing for me other than add movement and movement hinders accuracy.
I have a two color red dot on order. I plan for this rifle to be a plinker and three gun style shoots.

For the 80% lower I am going to order a 20" kit from Midway for about $500 and remove the fixed front sight and replace it with a low profile or rail model and order one of the Vortex 1-6X30mm scopes and a mount for this rifle and have a 20" scoped model for easily shooting at 2 Liter soda bottles at 100 to 200 yards. I will probably replace the hand guard with the rifle length Mag Pul Moe gear.
I am not one for gadgets on the rifle and tend to like them as clean as possible.

223 / 5.56 is a good round. it is relatively cheap to shoot. Accurate and is powerful enough for most game with the right bullet. I shoot 55 grain bullets out of my two rifles. I have shot some of the lead free to shoot ground squirrels here in CA where condor safe ammo is needed. I have other rifles I use to hunt with, but either would work if needed or wanted.
I have a friend that has one of his AR's set up as a long range varmint rifle. 24" barrel and 6-24 scope just like my M700 SPS but he can shoot and reload faster.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
It will be ready next week.
20" barre/.
flat top.
two stage trigger.
piston gas system.
Picked out a fore end that I liked, stock that i liked (adjustable) with a cheek rest----all the parts were chosen with advice from Tactical and a friend who was with me--will mount my Leupold scope and bore site it.
I am happy with the process and the cost---$1100.
Blessings
 

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As long as your happy, and satisfied. It's the "Good Base AR" you were looking for.
 

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William, sorry I'm late here, might have saved you some money (but I'm sure you have a fine AR there!). I just bought a bottom of the price line, $600 DPMS Oracle flat top. After that decision I was pleasantly surprised to find I own a 1\2" shooter with my reloads. It has a terrible trigger which is getting updated to a nice 2 stage soon. Good on you for trigger and fore end, which is too fat on mine and gets changed next. I did get some good advice from a gunsmith friend that said most any new ones will shoot around 1" with a good trigger and ammo., and if you want better, free float the barrel. Everything after that is personnel preference. Enjoy, I'm having a ball with mine. 44 Man
 

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44 said:
William, sorry I'm late here, might have saved you some money (but I'm sure you have a fine AR there!). I just bought a bottom of the price line, $600 DPMS Oracle flat top. After that decision I was pleasantly surprised to find I own a 1\2" shooter with my reloads. It has a terrible trigger which is getting updated to a nice 2 stage soon.
I'm late to the party, too, but I figured I'd chime in for the benefit of others who might be in William's former situation and looking to get in to an AR.

I bought an Oracle 5.56 new at a gun show last April. A police supply outfit had tables at the show and was "blowing out" thier inventory of Oracle 5.56's at $400.00. I couldn't resist at that price.

Mine isn't quite "a 1/2" shooter with my reloads" but it is right around M.O.A. with a 68 grain Hornady HPBT handload I use. Mine had a terrible trigger from new, too. And I'm not altogether crazy about the bulbous "Glacier Guard" forend pieces on these. I'd like to swap them for a "CAR-15" style set but haven't got around to it as of yet. If I were the only one in my household shooting it, I'd ditch the factory-issued Pardus six-position collapsing stock for a fixed A-2, too, but my 14 year old daughter likes shooting the Oracle and with the butt stock it came with, we can both shoot it set up so our noses are in light contact with the charging handle when shooting through metallic sights.

In keeping with the low budget theme, the metallic sights I use are a set of UTG's -A-2 style front clamped to the gas block, and an A-2 style rear, sans carry handle, clamped on the receiver. When I run an optic on it, it's a 2-7X, 32mm objective Weaver in 2 piece UTG quick-detach ring mounts.

DPMS doesn't seem to have the greatest reputation among the hardcore AR enthusiast crowd. Mine's been flawless in operation for 3,000 rounds over the last six months, though. No signs of anything about to break. The upper and lower on mine both have "Cerro-Forge" markings on them and the finish machining on both the upper and lower seems flawless inside and out, so I don't have anything to complain about, there. I'm not bugged about the barrel being 4140 steel -that works fine in every other centerfire rifle I have, and none of them have chrome-lined bores and chamberes, either. I don't really shoot it all that fast, though -about the same pace of fire with it as with my Ruger No.1's or bolt action rifles- so that might be why I haven't had any issues with it. Maybe I would if I ran it harder and faster than I do. I dunno...

The things that attracted me to the AR platform generally are the accuracy potential, ergonomics, and modularity. Ammo is expensive -even handloaded .223, if you shoot enough of it- so I want it to count for something when I pull the trigger on it. I've never been much in to shooting from a bench rest, and from shooting M-16's and AR's both in the military and in law enforcement, I find the "ergos" of the platform to be ideal for shooting sans rest from the standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone positions. I shoot enough to make things like barrel wear a potential issue, so the modularity of the platform is attractive to me because I can replace anything that wears out by myself, at home, including the barrel, when the time comes.

I'm actually pretty pleased with my DPMS Oracle 5.56. It's not something I'd want to go to war with, but no semi-automatic rifle is. As a recreational target gun, it's been a bunch of fun for not a whole lot of money, and it is far more mechanically accurate than I expected it would be. I expect it'll do fine for me whacking smallish local whitetails when my home state's modern gun season rolls around in a few day's time. All in all, for the things I actually do with a center-fire rifle, this covers most all the bases, and I can pretty much just shoot the crap out of it without worrying about wearing it out, as I can replace anything needing replacement on it at home, cheaply and easily.
 
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