[jeager106]

His mind that is.
I don't know why "god" commanded the Jews to kill all children, men and women, except women that were virgins.
The virgins they could keep for themselves.
Obvioulsy this was genocide in the purest form sanctioned by 'god'.
Today we call people that commit these acts in warfare "war criminals" and hang them.
Nice way to get youself a 12 year old "wife" and make her have your babies, change her entire way of life and clean up the gene pool at the same time. We call that RAPE and SLAVERY today, not to mention GENOCIDE.
So what changed? :
God?
And WHY the change?
And while we are at it do you believe the Bible is the inerrent word of god?
Anxiously awaiting your learned opinions.

 

[fe352v8]

Maybe God’s word is inerrant, but the Bible does not seem to be. In Geneses (KJV) 1:27 man and woman are created, yet in 2:18 man is alone so in 2:21 and 2:22 woman is created. The text clearly indicates the simultaneous creation of human male and female in chapter 1, yet in chapter 2 it is equally clear that the male is alone, and then woman is created after the male is in placed in the garden. Furthermore, in chapter 1 man and woman are created in God’s image, yet in chapter 2 man is created from dust and woman from the rib of the man. Seems to be a lack of continuity, would think an omnipotent being, would be a better editor.

1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

2:21
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

2:22
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon

 

[Leverdude]

It seems to me, in my limited knowledge on the subject that in the begining God had little or no use for non Jews except when the Jews asked to be left under the charge of others like what happened in Egypt. Once led to the promised land they were told to basically obliterate anyone of differing beliefs to make room for the Jews. In this He was remorseless & the fact that the Jews time after time fell under the spell of local gods tells me people had just as much trouble holding onto faith in those days as they do today.
God didn't seem very inclined to take these people into the fold although I recall reading that on several ocasions he directed the Jews to offer them being cercumcized & if they refused then they were to be brought down.
I'm not suprised that not many came around as I reckon circumcision was down right painfull in those days to say the least.

I believe He had a change of heart when he sent Jesus to save us from our sins & thats why Jesus preached peace, not just to the Jews but to anyone who would listen he brought hope in the form of heaven & everlasting life.

Maybe God was accumulating alot more souls then He thought he would & needed a way to sort the good from the bad & something to do with each set. He created heaven for those he found deserving & **** for the rest.
He sent Jesus to show us how to best take advantage of this new offer & 2000 + years later we're still trying to figure it out.

I believe the Bible is the word of God written by men, translated by men & interperated by men. It cant IMO be perfect because people arent perfect.
Its a guide on how to act & a history of the Jews & early Christians. Theres alot of historically checkable things in it, enought that I believe its basically correct & the message it was meant to send is in there if you look for it.
Its not right on top but buried & taken as a whole I find it hard to discredit.
Anyone can pick apart a chapter here or a verse there but I found that if I tried, once I wanted to understand & not mock it, I could find the answers I couldn't with a closed mind.
In otherwords only when I admitted that I cant know everything & opened myself up to learning from what I was reading could I get anything from it.
I still dont know everything, but I know Jesus walked the earth & I know God sent him because we just aint smart enuff to do right without him.
I dont know how I know, I dont know why I know, I dont care if anyone thinks I dont know, but I know that 2000+ years ago a man named Jesus walked around for 3 or 4 years teaching what was at the time thought of as blasphemy & 2 milenium later more people believe in Him than any other religion in the world. Thats gotta mean something all by itself.

Sorry if I got off track. :grin:

 

[jeager106]

leverdude:
Christianity is NOT the largest religion in the world by a long shot.
A common misconception.
fe 352 v8 makes a good point with the Genisis account.
You make a LOT of sense.
Jesus taught for about 2.5 years.
I agree with you about the Bible being a great book for mankind to follow.
"I believe the Bible is the word of God written by men, translated by men & interperated by men. It cant IMO be perfect because people arent perfect."
I quite agree with that statement also, but you will get arguements against that line of thought.
Like I said, you do make a lot of sense.

 

[Leverdude]

jeager106,

I thank you for the kind words.

Christianity is NOT the largest religion in the world by a long shot.
A common misconception.

I stand corrected, could you be pursuaded to tell me What is?

 

[Brett]

Maybe God’s word is inerrant, but the Bible does not seem to be. In Geneses (KJV) 1:27 man and woman are created, yet in 2:18 man is alone so in 2:21 and 2:22 woman is created. The text clearly indicates the simultaneous creation of human male and female in chapter 1, yet in chapter 2 it is equally clear that the male is alone, and then woman is created after the male is in placed in the garden. Furthermore, in chapter 1 man and woman are created in God’s image, yet in chapter 2 man is created from dust and woman from the rib of the man. Seems to be a lack of continuity, would think an omnipotent being, would be a better editor.

1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

2:21
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

2:22
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon

I don't believe that Genesis was intended to be a step by step, chronologically ordered account of creation. I believe the style of writing is like that of a lecture. The speaker (remember these accounts were past down orally for generations before they ever got written down.) first gives a broad overview of the material. Then he goes back and fills in some of the finer points of detail. If viewed in this manner there are no contradictions. Where it is written God said let us make man 'in our image' maybe a better translation should be 'in our likeness', and I believe that God is talking about making man a spiritual being like He and Christ not physically look like them.

I believe that the translators of the original King James version did the very best they could given the information and understanding that they had at the time. I will concede that it probably could use a little tweaking here and there. However, I feel that the overall integrity of the message has not been compromised.

 

[jeager106]

Leverdude:
I mislead you a bit. Christianity makes up 33% of the worlds religions, but it is the largest single religion IF you include everyone of the Christain sects.
Here are the top five.

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

 

[scattergun0]

Why did GOD change ?

Genesis: sixth day creation, man was created on the sixth day. On the eight day God created Adam from the dust of the ground, the linage form which Jesus would come. Adam was alone in the garden before Eve was created from Adams rib. Hope this helps some. Hud

 

[jeager106]

Re: Why did GOD change ?

Genesis: sixth day creation, man was created on the sixth day. On the eight day God created Adam from the dust of the ground, the linage form which Jesus would come. Adam was alone in the garden before Eve was created from Adams rib. Hope this helps some. Hud

What book you readin'?
I've never seen wehre Adam was created on day 8.

 

[Leverdude]

I thought Adam was the first acording to the scriptures.
Thats another thing I find inconsistent that either got screwed up in translation or interpertation. Probably on account of mans not being perfect & the fact that oral traditions change a bit with each telling.

When Adam's family got booted they found plenty of folks outside the garden to go live with. Whered they come from?

P.S.

Thank you for the explanation Jaeger.

 

[fe352v8]

Brett,

Do you find the use of the word replenish, in this verse curious:

1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

It would seem to indicate that there was life before.

May your god be with you and you with your God

jon

 

[jeager106]

1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
FE: Good point. One could guess that replenish means that the earth 'lost' something and needed man to do something to bring back what was lost.
Why would God say "subue" the earth?
Was it in rebellion?
Perhaps it ws merely wild and untamed?

 

[Leverdude]

Perhaps it ws merely wild and untamed?

Bingo! IMO anyway. He was saying it was ours to do with as we please.

The replenish part I'v not come to terms with yet. Almost like the author was thinking about Noah when he was writing Genisis.

Or maybe man wasn't Gods first try at inteligent life. I think we'd a found some signs of a previous inteligent civilization but I also believe that if God wanted to totally iradicate a species or what have you with no sign left he could. It just doesnt fit His modus operandi so to speak. :lol:

 

[Elwood]

Replenish?
Translation is a tricky business but, ......I looked at six different bibles and only the King James says replenish. Dont get stuck over this single word.
It could just be a translation glitch. I find it interesting that no one else used this wording.
Elwood

 

[fe352v8]

Both Brett and Elwood have summed up a problem I have had with scripture for many years.

Brett: “(remember these accounts were past down orally for generations before they ever got written down.) “

Elwood: “Translation is tricky business”.

This is why I have such a hard time with this, inerrant, unaltered, literal, word stuff, aside from the issues of who and why, what writings were chosen for inclusion or exclusion in scripture.

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon

 

[ironglow]

This discussion is pointless...

Hebrews 13:8

James 1:17

Either you believe God's word or you don't...if it is established that you don't believe it..further discussion is a moot point..

The so-called "lapses" in the creation story have all been handled and explained well with each new unbelieving generation...no need to waste our breath here...
Often time a practical-unbeliever will find what they believe to be a "mistake" or "goof" in the Bible, then shout it from the roof tops....ignorant of the fact that these same "revelations" have been brought up again and again, disproven, smashed and put away with each new generation of confused, self-styled scholars.
This same old game has been going on since the Bible was written..

Here's a little poem for remembrance:


THE ANVIL OF GOD'S WORD

Last night I paused beside the blacksmith's door;
And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime.
Then looking in, I saw upon the floor
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.


"How many anvils have you had?" said I
"To wear and batter all these hammers so;
"Just one", said he, and then with twinkling eye
"The anvil wears the hammers out you know !"


And so thought I; " The anvil of God's word;
For ages, skeptic blows have beat upon;
And though the sound of falling blows was heard;
The anvil is unchanged....the hammers gone...."

John Clifford

Being a blacksmith, I have committed this poem to memory.
...a simple, beautiful little ditty with reams of truth.I often use it to disavow the arguments of self agrandizing "experts"..

When I review the lead tag lines put down by some in this forum...clearly they are just attempts at Christian-baiting..or Bible -trashing; take your choice...

 

[fe352v8]

I agree with Ironglow, in as much as, “Either you believe God's word or you don't...”.

My question is, is its God’s word, or is it man’s, and how does one know?

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon

 

[ironglow]

So, at this point we simply " Shake off the dust of our feet"..

Matt 10:14
Mark 6:11
Luke 9:5

...As Christians are expected to do...

 

[Leverdude]

My question is, is its God’s word, or is it man’s, and how does one know?

I'm not sure you can know. Thats why faith is necessary.
I believe as I'v said its Gods word put into writing by his imperfect creation, man.

The prophets who were told by God what to do & how to act were men. The desciples & Apostles were men. All those who witnessed Jesus while he lived were men & all who came after were as well. Men not being perfect did the best they could with what they had & I believe they did a dern good job given their limited abilities. The message is there if I seek it. Its real easy to poke holes in alot of it but again thats where faith comes in. I reckon if he wanted God could just whip up a Bible without the mysteries that would amount to a definitive, unquestionable book of the way to live. He could also just make us all believers & be done with it.
I think tho that he wants us to think & ponder the messages in His book, to come to terms with it ourselves wether we really believe or not. Faith is important to Him & faith isn't necessary if we know everything.

That He cares & watches is beyond doubt IMO. From the time of Adam right up till modern times God has helped us see the light when we wandered. With the prophets, with Jesus & in many ways in every day life I see His hand trying to guide us the right way.

For many years I believed the Catholic church the only real church. I was tought that the Church the Apostles got up & running was the only one, the very idea of a Protestant religion seemed out of whack. What are you protesting? If its the church that Jesus's followers started then it would seem you were protesting Jesus. I'v come to terms with the fact that people need diversity & that God knows this. He made us after all.
I dont think he cares where you pray, only that you do. I think he hears me if I'm praying from a campsite in the woods as clearly as in a church.
I believe its much more important how one conducts himself then what name he chooses to give his religion.
I dont believe that everyone who thru circumstances not in their control never gets to know God automatically goes to ****. I believe Evil men go to **** & good ones dont. I'm not here to judge so if I'm wrong no ones the worse off.
I know people who go to Mass every Sunday & then go out & cheat on their wives or beat their children. I refuse to believe that going to a building on Sunday to lie to God wipes that clean.
I know other men who help others whenever they can, do all sorts of volenteer work & raise their families with love, understanding & a genuine desire to have their children grow into good adults with the same values Jesus tought us. I cant help but believe that God smiles on these people & somehow they found God without even knowing it or trying.

Maybe neither of these fellows will enter Heaven but its my opinion that the honest man who does the right thing just because its right is far better off than the one who does what he's been told because he believes it'll over ride anything else he may do.

Jesus said the only way into heaven was thru him. Thats been interpreted alot of different ways & I'm lucky enough to have been brought into this world in a family that already believed in him. Those who arent as lucky as myself & are born into a family or society that doesn't know God arent doomed from birth. I dont think my God is cruel & that would be. If you treat others as you would be treated, If you help those in need & dont let personal greed drive your ambition, if you look at your fellow men as equals regardless of whatever shortcomings you might notice then you've got a good shot IMO.
Course I could be totally wrong & a literal interpretation of the Bible would suggest I am.

For my soul it doesnt much matter as I certainly believe that Jesus walked the earth so as I could be with God when my book closes. That part of the Bible I accept without question.

 

[gwhilikerz]

Maybe God’s word is inerrant, but the Bible does not seem to be. In Geneses (KJV) 1:27 man and woman are created, yet in 2:18 man is alone so in 2:21 and 2:22 woman is created. The text clearly indicates the simultaneous creation of human male and female in chapter 1, yet in chapter 2 it is equally clear that the male is alone, and then woman is created after the male is in placed in the garden. Furthermore, in chapter 1 man and woman are created in God’s image, yet in chapter 2 man is created from dust and woman from the rib of the man. Seems to be a lack of continuity, would think an omnipotent being, would be a better editor.

1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

2:21
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

2:22
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

May your God be with you and you with your God

jon

Good post Jon. God "created" man and woman at the same time just like the scriptures say. They were fishers, hunters, gatherers. Then in Chapter 2 we see where God saw that He didn't have a man to till the soil. This doesn't come thru very clearly in the translations from Hebrew to English, but that is they way I understand it. So He "formed" Adam, or if I can spell it correctly, Ha'Adam--- THE Adam. God then took a "rib" from Adam to make Eve. The word that was translated rib actually means "curve". I think this most likely points to the "helix curve" meaning DNA. By using Adam's dna God made certain that the bloodline thru which His Christ would come would start out pure, just the way He wanted it.