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.45-70 vs. .500 S&W

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54K views 37 replies 19 participants last post by  CWC  
#1 ·
Was watching vids on Handi Rifles on Youtube and tripped over the vid below about a .500 S&W...

It's definitely kicking a bunch, LOL!

Have to admit... that made me want it all the more, LOL!

But I was thinking... Does the .500 really do anything the .45-70 can't in a similarly strong rifle?

Your thoughts?

 
#2 ·
Bigger diameter bullets. Using bullets with minimal expansion like cast, a 22% larger impact area matters.....at least a little. Novelty and exclusivity. I hunted moose with a .50-70 for years, vey effective and you’ll not likely meet someone else hunting with it.


.
 
#3 ·
If you look at the loads for a modern 45-70 (non-trapdoor), you'll find 405gr +P ammo from Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, and other manufacturers that is about 100 fps faster with similar weight bullets. When you consider the ballistic coefficient of the 45-70 over the 500 S&W, you'll see the 45-70 gives better performance with both distance and penetration. Here's a quick comparison from 22 inch barrel rifles:

300 grain Buffalo Bore 45-70 = 2350 fps
300 grain Hornady 500 S&W = 2248 fps

350 grain Buffalo Bore 45-70 = 2100 fps
350 grain Hornady 500 S&W= 2056 fps

400 grain Buffalo Bore 45-70 = 2000 fps
400 grain Cor-Bon 500 S&W = 1971 fps

I own handi rifles in both 500 S&W and 45-70 (plus 2 trapdoors). I use my 500 S&W for brush hunting out to around 75 yards. I am comfortable using my 45-70 out to 300 yards to hunt, then the bullet drop gets a pain in the rear to start calculating.
 
#6 ·
Ill go this route. I like classic and the 4570 wins I that category hands down. But in killing id take the 500. Bigger bullet, bigger metplat. As to sectional density that's an easy one to cure. Use a heavier 500 bullet. 400 grain 4570 bullets are in the medium to large for caliber category. 400 grain 500 bullets are light for the caliber. Step up to a 450-500 grain lfn that has as good of sectional density as a 400 grain 4570 bullet and because of its weight its going to penetrate better. Trajectory to me means nothing. If im going to hunt where shots are past even 200 yards the 4570 is staying home. Sure it can do it. heck ive hit steal at near a 1000 with a 4570 but that doesn't make it a perfect hunting round for those distances. In all reality its like comparing the 475 Linebaugh to the 500 Linebaugh. Either will kill about anything. Especially if you use heavy for caliber bullets and make velocity a secondary concern. Id rather have either of them with a heavy for caliber cast lfn or similar design at 1500 fps then either with a 300 grain jacked hp at any velocity. Math numbers like ft lbs of energy don't kill. Trajectory is another non issue to me. Neither are flat shooting. I don't see how knowing I have to hold over 7 inches at 300 yards means a spit difference then knowing I have to hold over 10 inches. What kills is a big bullet that leaves a long wound channel and breaks down an animal. You can dig up arguments that favor either. Im not a bit 500 smith fan. Why? Because I think the guns smith made to chamber them are huge and ugly. In a lever gun it would make a very formidable cartridge though. Especially for someone that doesn't handload. To equal it in a 4570 you about have to be a handloader or pay for expensive buffalo bore ammo. Again a non issue to me but its a real one. Want my real opinion? If you want real horse power in a lever gun skip both and get yourself a 50 Alaskan. It will eat the other two for lunch.
 
#8 ·
I had a Handi Rifle in 500 S&W. It didn't show me anything to compare with my .45-70s. Recoil was more, components cost more, recoil was more, and trajectory sucked. I load 405 .45-70s to 1950 fps. It does all I can see and need out to 400 yards or more. I have never had anything walk. I've missed a fox at 400 yards. but that's pilot error. But I killed fox and coyote at the same 400. I never had a deer go more than two jumps, and I've taken them at 300 plus. I might like a .500 if T Rex was smashing my front door! It's a pistol round not a rifle cartridge, don't expect it to perform like one.

Over the .500, I much prefer what I call my .45-70 short...my .445 Super Magnum. It beats the .500 in cost and recoil. A nice PISTOL round that is happy in a rifle.

Pete
 
#9 ·
ya pete up here and in most states both are more then what is really needed. A good 44 mag lever gun shooting 300 grain casts will kill anything that walks. Actually my favorite lever gun isn't my 4570 or my 50ak. Its a little marlin 94 17 inch gun in 475 lineabaugh that Rob Applegate built for me. Light, handy, easy to carry and even loaded down with a 350 grain lfn at 1200 fps will kill anything in the continental US. Another favorite of mine that sometimes over looked is the 444. Flatter shooting then either the 4570 or 500 smith and it packs some serious punch.
I had a Handi Rifle in 500 S&W. It didn't show me anything to compare with my .45-70s. Recoil was more, components cost more, recoil was more, and trajectory sucked. I load 405 .45-70s to 1950 fps. It does all I can see and need out to 400 yards or more. I have never had anything walk. I've missed a fox at 400 yards. but that's pilot error. But I killed fox and coyote at the same 400. I never had a deer go more than two jumps, and I've taken them at 300 plus. I might like a .500 if T Rex was smashing my front door! It's a pistol round not a rifle cartridge, don't expect it to perform like one.

Over the .500, I much prefer what I call my .45-70 short...my .445 Super Magnum. It beats the .500 in cost and recoil. A nice PISTOL round that is happy in a rifle.

Pete
 
#11 ·
i have two tc encore's in a 23" MGM heavy factory barrels in 444 marlin and 500 linebaugh. i load them up slow because i had a stroke a few years ago. the 444 marlin is a 300gr fn gc over 2400/tuft of dacron that goes 1624fps avg. the 500L is a 460gr lfn gc over hs-6 that goes 1235fps avg. they are great for deer and black bear.

i have a 45-70 handi rifle but i don't use it. i've killed deer with the 45-70 but......it just wasn't for me. its my "borrow" gun. i'll even give the guy ammo, 405gr fn cast that goes 1300+/-fps(can't remember the powder load).
 
#13 ·
It looks like a lot of fun, but what ever happened to the .450 Marlin? I thought that it would give the .45-70 all it could handle, sales wise anyway.
 
#14 ·
I never understood why the 450 marlin didn't take off better myself. Ive never owned one but my buddy who has forgot more then most of us know has one and loves it. For a non handloader it gives you a big power increase over the 4570 and what I like about it is its a lot easier to push rounds into a marlins loading gate. All common sense says it should have put a deap cut in 4570 sales but I guess it just doesn't replace nostalgia
 
#15 ·
my guess is the belt. :confused:

lever actions don't need no belt!!!!

my 2cents worth.


i don't have a 450 marlin but i do reload. i have a 45-70 handi and it takes trapdoor loads.
 
#16 ·
Not to start a dust-up but I could NEVER understand buying a cannon and then loading it down to popgun status. Nor can I understand using a 45 cal "whatever" to shoot deer. I fed a growing family shooting deer with a 22 LR and later on a 17 FB, several 22 cal center-fires and most other cals up to 30 cal.

The last deer I shot was with a 12 GAFH and a 800+ gr "missile" basically to test the results of an ≈2 oz hunk of lead a ≈3/4" in diameter. It basically wiped out all the "good eats". I saved the hind quarters and part of the straps. The slug hit the scapula and used it as a carving/bludgeoning hammer to destroy or tear up most of the front end...the head and neck down to the shoulder junction was left hanging on by a few pieces of hide.

It DID answer my question tho'.

I also get a bit tired of the "this VS that"...a sure way to get the pot stirred and not add anything of much value, besides the inevitable "apples vs oranges" and more appropriately "kumquats vs Dolphins".

I know this is "vs", "apples and frog legs" is part and parcel of forums and us men, but I think it would be much better to just post the data for a particular shooter/load you have/like and leave off the comparisons...I can do that myself.

On the lighter side I have a Browning 450 Marlin BLR I like very much basically because I can load it to magnum pressures same as a 300 or 458 WM. The 450 Marlin got a bunch of bad pres from idiots that call themselves writers and then the RE-Pete's got in to the act with their mindless garbage and the 45-70'ers went totally ****** with their "passion fruit vs monkey" comparison...you can always kill a lie but you can NEVER kill a half truth...which is just what happened with the 450 M leverguns. It just really shows how gullible we shooters are.

I have a dozen 45-50 cal rifles/leverguns/SS in 45-70, 458 American, 458 Lott, 50-70, 50-90's, and wildcat 50 cals with barrels from 22 to 34"...I DO know something about them, but I guarantee everytime I talk about what ballistics a particular rifle produces I get a ton of arguments why I don't know what I'm talking about...so I don't post much of my data...that BS that comes from trying to teach someone something is just NOT worth the candles.

And NOW I'm off on a couple of 444 M and 458 Lott wildcat delusions for my Marlin 336 that is SURE to set off a few booms if I ever post my results...or there will be NO interest because the BOTH will have more recoil than most lever-gunners want to deal with. Oh, Well...C'est La vie.

Good Hunting
 
#18 ·
Well... the reason I bought a .45-70... and load it down to trapdoor levels is... cast bullets. I can get the energy levels up with heavier bullets, at cast bullet velocities, without having to have gas checks or other trickery... and yet if I really needed the thump factor... jacketed is an option.

Having grown up in the times when .30-06 was considered the "middle" cartridge... I think of 2500 ft lbs. as being the middle energy level (which it isn't of course, since .460 Wby comes in at 10,000, but you know what I'm saying....30-06 was the "standard")... I can get close to that with cast in .45-70 and plain base.

With .30 cal rifles and cast... for the most part they are all limited to .30-30 levels... and well... I have a .30-30, LOL! Jacketed is needed for the performance levels that made those guns famous in the first place. (Experiments with paper patching and linotype not withstanding).

But sure, it is 100% possible to put food on the table and dispatch deer with .22 LR if one knows what one is doing. Worst case... 5 or 10 .22 LR should have the same effect as same number of small buckshot. (Although I know that's not what you meant, of course.)

As for the original question... I just noticed that .500 S&W and .45-70 overlap some on the energy level but pressure levels and diameter are different. So... wanted to hear others thoughts and experiences.

I'm always up for learning something new about this stuff, and often as not, others know things and have perspectives I may not. So it's all good to me. :)
 
#17 ·
This is the kind of thread that gun lovers live for. A discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of everything. The biggest advantage I can see for the 500 is you can hunt deer with it in the shotgun zone of mi. and many other states as well. I have a 500 and ammo is too expensive. I don't handload, 45-70 ammo is cheaper but I can't step out my backdoor and shoot a deer with it.

mike
 
#19 ·
The problem with the internet is it's full of mis-information, dis-information and total "stuff". You/me/ANYONE can cherry pick and "prove a point" whether it's valid or not. "Comparing" energy ratings found online or in other places is like comparing a Ford with a Chevy with a Dodge with a Ferrari...ANYTHING can be gussied up and said to be "something GREAT".

I/YOU/ANYONE can load their shooters to ANY velocity/energy they want(within safety limits) and can equivocate ANY shooter to another one....BUT...you have to understand all the various factors to do so to get/have useful information. I do it all the time to develop a specific load for a specific rifle to get OPTIMUM ballistic potential.

AND everyone usually starts comparing apples with frog legs from the start.

The concept of "flat shooting" is just some "imaginary construct" in their minds and, of course, NO ONE COMPARES POINTY BULLETS WITH POINTY BULLETS" especially in large cal blasters...it's mostly FP's or RN's because they "HIT" harder...a HIGHLY ARGUMENTATIVE subject with mostly SUBJECTIVE arguments...I've seen little actual scientifically developed data...but hey, if it works for you and kills your beasty then what every you used was successful...keep doing it. A 45-70's rainbow trajectory is anything but flat shooting when talking about any range beyond about 50 yds.

I've been at this game a very long time and I'm NOT HERE to defend or denigrate...I just wish people would look at things with a more critical eye and ASK a few more specific questions or not take the on-forum "stuff" verbatim.

Lever guns have a built in length limit except for the few that do a bit of "wildcatting. My marlin will handle 2.75" COAL which means I CAN use pointy bullets and NOT loose case volume...and my chamber is NOT FACTORY...I guarantee I can get ballistic properties far beyond a 444 M and the 45 cal will do even better...at THE SAME PRESSURE LIMITS.

Doing a few "mods" that are easily and safely done can increase ballistic potential by a long ways...you just have to think outside the usual envelope...but you HAVE TO THINK....

OR NOT...it's YOUR TOY and your hunt. do what you think is best for YOU.

Good Hunting
 
#21 ·
.45-70 at Two Miles: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879
Rifle Magazine ^ | November 1977 | W. John Farquharson
Posted on 2/14/2003, 5:18:19 PM by 45Auto

THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.

Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.

The line age of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture.

The first long range tests were made at ranges of up to 1,500 yards on the Springfield Armory test range at Long Meadow, Massachusetts. These tests compared the long distance shooting and penetration performance of the .45 caliber trapdoor Springfield and the .45 caliber Martini-Henry rifles.

The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.

The British Army .450-577 Martini-Henry lever-operated, drop-block action was far stronger than the Allin trapdoor breech. The Martini-Henry weighed about 9½ pounds, had a barrel 33 inches long with a right-hand twist, seven groove bore. The bore diameter was .450, and the groove diameter was .463. The .450-577 Martini-Henry cartridge was a muscular creation. It was based upon a sharply necked-down and lengthened .577-inch Snider case, loaded with a 480-grain lead bullet of .445 diameter, backed by 85 grains of black powder for a muzzle velocity of 1,253 fps.

The following table gives the angles of elevation for these loads from the actual test firings at 1,000 and 1,500 yards. Accuracy firings of the rifles were made at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards.

SPRINGFIELD and MARTINI-HENRY ANGLES OF ELEVATION

1,000 yards 1,500 yards .45-85-405 Springfield Long Range 2d 40' 53" 4d 35' 34" .45-70-405 Springfield Service 3d 6' 37" 5d 20' 4" .45-85-480 Martini-Henry 3d 18' 36" 5d 41' 24"

VERTICAL and HORIZONTAL SHOT DISPERSION AT 1,000 YARDS

Mean Mean Mean Horizontal Vertical Radius Springfield 9.23" 16.8" 19.1" Martini-Henry 10.9" 14.55" 18.2"

Though there is no direct relationship between mean radius and group size figures, a mean radius of 18 to 19 inches would probably translate into a group size of between 55 and 70 inches. Old Ordnance records show that when fired from a machine rest the .45 Springfield was expected to group all of its bullets inside a 4-inch circle at 100 yards, in a 11-inch bull's-eye at 300 yards, and inside a 27-inch circle at 500 yards.

At 1,000 and 1,500 yards, as expected, the mean vertical figures are considerably larger than the mean horizontal. (See the above table.) This is the result of variations in muzzle velocity, which gives this dispersion at long range, and also the effect of the high trajectory of these rifle bullets since the target is perpendicular to the ground, while the bullet is descending at an angle.

The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.

The rifles tested included a special "long range" Springfield chambered for a 2.4-inch shell instead of the standard 2.1-inch case. The 2.4-inch case held 80 grains of black powder behind the new prototype 500-grain lead bullet. The other loads tested were the standard .45-70-405 Army load in the issue M-1873 Springfield, and the .45-85-480 load in the British Martini-Henry rifle.

The report states that a leaf to the rear sight several inches long was prepared in order to obtain the necessary elevation. A combination of the V-notch slide of the regular issue sight and a screw at the bottom of the leaf afforded means of correcting for wind and drift.

The target, which had been 12 feet by 12 feet square at 1,500 yards, was changed to one 44 feet long by 22 feet high. The extended wings had a height of 16 feet.

Since one of the test's objectives was to gauge bullet penetration, the huge target consisted of three 1-inch thick boards, separated by 1-inch cleats. The target was supported on 6-inch spruce posts and was constructed partly of spruce and partly pine, since this was the wood at hand.

In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.

When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches, and the Martini-Henry 480-grain bullet, 2.50 inches.

Angles of rifle elevation were: Springfield service .45-70-405 - 17°08'16"; Springfield long range .45-80-500 - l0°38'21"; and Martini-Henry .45-85-480 - 13°20'18".

The angle made by the shot holes with the face of the target appeared to be about 40 degrees for the service Springfield, 45 degrees for the Martini-Henry, and 50 degrees for the long range Springfield. This angle is taken from the vertical and thus the lower angular reading indicates the higher angle of descent. Various kinds of bullets were dug out of the sand within 45 feet of the target and directly behind it. This shows the great angle of trajectory at this range and how extremely difficult it was for Mr. R.T. Hare to hit a 2,500-yard target the size of the one used.

The target 22 feet high by 44 feet long was then placed at 3,200 yards from the firer. The range chosen was fortunate in that it was found to be the extreme for the Martini-Henry. When the firer was instructed to increase his elevation, the range decreased. On decreasing the elevation, the range increased to a certain point.

The majority of the Martini .45-85-480 balls fell from 50 to 100 yards short, while the others did not go more than 25 yards beyond. More than 300 Martini-Henry cartridges were fired, but the target was not hit.

The long range Springfield's 500-grain bullets hit the target four times - twice where it was one board thick, and twice where it was two boards thick. In each case the heavy blunt nosed lead bullet punched through the wood planks and buried itself several inches into the sand.

At this extreme surveyed range, the angle of fall of the Martini 480-grain lead bullets was about 65 degrees to 70 degrees judging from the holes in the moist sand. Bullets were found in the sand behind the 22-foot-high target at a distance of only 35 feet. It was evident that they struck the sand point on, as the lead noses were always found rough.

In the case of the long range Springfield, the angle of the shot hole with the face of the target was about 30 degrees and the heavy bullet in punching through two one-inch boards actually penetrated a total of 2.5 inches. Those lead slugs that struck in the sand generally penetrated to a depth of 8 to 10 inches, sometimes more.

In this respect the Armory's 500-grain balls surpassed the Martini's 480-grain balls, which did not penetrate more than 6 inches into sand. In trying to get the correct 3,200-yard elevation, the long range bullets were thrown over 300 yards beyond the target. These were then dug out of the beach and all were found to have struck point on.

For the .45-80-500 2.4-inch case Springfield long range rifle at a MV of about 1,375 fps, the angle of elevation was 20°51'37". For the .45-85-480 Martini-Henry at 1,253 fps MV, the angle of elevation was 26°5l'.

The report of November 13, 1879, lists the results of firing tests made at 3,500 yards distance with two long range Springfields. One had a rifle barrel with a l-in-18 rifling twist, the other .45-80-500 had a 19 5/8-inch twist. Two different loads were used: .45-70-500, and .45-80-500. The Martini-Henry .45-85-480 and the service .45-70-405 Springfields were again tested against a Sharps-Borchardt using the same loads as in the long range M-1873 Allin-Springfields. After firing many rounds, the service Springfield and Martini-Henry rounds failed to reach the target at 3,500 yards.

In these firing experiments, two telephones provided with Blake transmitters were used for timing the bullet's flight. One was placed within a few feet of the rifle, to receive and transmit the sound of the shot. The other Blake unit was nearly two miles downrange in the shelterproof, which was located about 30 feet in front of the right edge of the target. At the instant the sound of the discharge was heard over the telephone, a watch ticking fourth-seconds was started. At the sound of the bullet striking target or sand, it was stopped. Average time of flight for the .45-70-500-grain load was 21.2 seconds, With the more powerful .45-80-500-grain cartridge the time-of-flight was 20.8 seconds.

For 3,500 yards distance, angles of elevation ran from 27 degrees to 29 degrees. This varied drastically from day to day due to the effects of head and tail winds. The quicker-twist rifles required less elevation than the others at the same range. The greatest distance obtained with the .45-caliber long range, 1-in-18 twist Springfield rifle was 3,680 yards. Angle of elevation didn't exceed 32 degrees on a day when an angle of about 25 degrees placed bullets all around the target at 3,500 yards range.

While these tests may be considered mere oddities today, they proved extremely useful at the time. The fact that the 500-grain bullet penetrated through the three-plank target and eight inches into sand meant that it could kill or wound enemy troops at extreme distances, even if they were partially protected and that was significant military information in a period when it was quite usual for large masses of troops to form up within view of defenders. Although no average infantryman could be expected to equal Mr. Hare's accuracy, a large number of defenders shooting from barricade rests and given the proper sight adjustments for the range could severely harass companies and larger bodies of enemy troops at previously unheard-of ranges. It may have been these tests, and this line of thinking, that caused military theoreticians to employ machine guns for indirect, high trajectory fire in the same manner as artillery during the earlier stages of World War I.

Since the tests showed that the 405-grain service bullet failed to perform as well as the 500-grain, and that the 500-grain bullet showed relatively little difference when propelled by either 70 or 80 grains of black powder, the .45-70-500 load in the service 2.1-inch case was adopted as standard for rifles. Thus those little-remembered Sandy Hook tests of 1879 had a lasting impact on firearms history without them, the gun companies might have recently resurrected the .45-80.

Good enough for me:tango_face_smile:
 
#22 ·
I remember reading an article like that one some time way back when...It was interesting but moot and not germane to anything but specialized interest and certainly not to the average hunter I think nor to todays components. They were doing the same thing then as we do today...we don't really know the exact whys/wherefores...there was as much "fiddling" back then as there is todays when determining "military requirements" ...they set the parameters first and MAKE the manufactures fit them. Even though there "may" be better "things" available, if they don't fit the parameters they don't get a chance. I'm also guessing some General "liked" one better than the others and convinced the rest with the same way it happens today...it's called "Group think".

I lob 500-700 gr slugs out of my long barreled 45-120 and 50-90 out to 5-600 yds at sagerats...even hit one now and then. I don't have gongs at specific distances to shoot at just anything big enough to see and safely shootable...just for kicks...I also have highly accurate long range rifles in 6.5, 7, 338 and 50 cal I do the same with(also at targets).

Sharpshooters, luck and caprice of the "Gods" have killed many men and animals at long range with and without specialized tech...that is progress I suppose.

Even tho' I've been "long range shooting" for 30-40 years I consider myself a novice in that game because I don't have/use all the sophisticated equipment that's being used today...it somehow seems "cheating". Great for Military use but shooting an Elk or deer at 1000 yards plus is not my cup of tea. More interesting to shoot a sage rat at those distances. I keep looking at the distance measuring/calculating devices, but I also think the rutted road to is much more interesting than the destination.

I think the nostalgia over a 45-70 is a bit overblown but everytime I say thatsomeone goes ballistic. My opinion is not a diss...I now HAVE and have had a 45-70 since I was in college a long time ago, but I don't sleep with it or ANY of my myriad of shooters...they are just tools to complete a job...I grab whatever cannon I want to put bacon on the table.

Just enjoy whatever toy you have, use or like.

Good Hunting
 
#23 ·
i guess i'm "one of those guys" who download cartridges. i had a stroke several years ago and it left me without the use of right arm/leg. i use my 444 marlin(tc encore/23" MGM barrel) and 300gr fn gc(saeco) with 2400 and a tuft of dacron that averages 1624fps. it kills deer and that is what i want. the 45-70 handi rifle and a 405gr fn with a light charge of h4198 averages 1304fps. it will also kill deer but i'm not a 45-70 guy. the 500 linebaugh(tc encore/ 23" MGM barrel) and 450gr lfn gc and some hs-6 averages 1235fps . i've only killed one doe but it was dead right there(38 yards). the 30-40 krag(1898 spr armory bubbasized) and 165gr ranch dog with h4198 averages 1930fps and it will kill deer. my furthest shot on a cast boolit(30-40 krag) is 173 yards and the doe was drt. every deer i shot was thru n thru, shoulder or behind the shoulder. these cartridges kick about as much as a 30-30 and 170gr factory load, the 500L is the exception to rule, it kicks about as 30-06 with 150gr factory load will. oh....i forgot my ruger sbh in 44 mag. i'll take a 44spl and load it up with 255gr keith and some unique(skeeter load) going about 800-850fps and it will kill deer too.

my next two guns are a 9.3x57 in husky m46 and 35x30/30(JES will do it http://www.35caliber.com/8.html ) in win m94. they both will downloaded to around 1800+/- fps. the 9.3 will be 280gr fn gc and the 35 will be 200ish fn gc.

i used to be "one of those guys" that worshipped more velocity. now, i just shrug my shoulder and say "it'll get there.....eventually." :tango_face_wink:
 
#24 ·
Yes, I can see that.

I kinda divide cartridges into two basic groups. Momentum cartridges and velocity cartridges.

The momentum cartridges are the low, slow, heavy ones... .45-70 for example, usually straight wall and hail from the black powder days.

Velocity cartridges are the light, fast ones, e.g. .30-06, 7.62x54r, 7.92x57, etc. Basically all the bottleneck, smokeless cartridges.

We all know the tradeoffs of each in this forum, no doubt, as well as the history of how each came to be.

For non- combat uses, where I can be sure of the range or estimate it well and know the loading... I'm a big fan of the momentum group, because I like to cast my own bullets.

For "serious social work", or where a long flat point blank range is needed, I lean the other way, naturally.

Horses for courses, naturally.

To be honest, for most hunting with short ranges, I'm given to believe a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs or 6's, depending on what you are after will cover the vast majority of situations... but of course you have to be enough of a hunter to get close in.

For everything else, there's them new fangled bottleneck cartridges. (LOL!) :)
 
#27 ·
i wanted a 50-70 soooooooo bad!!!!! i like the 500 linebaugh(.510") and 450gr lfn gc with hs-6. its a tc encore in 23" MGM barrel. while its only going 1235fps, the 500L will do a thru-n-thru on deer. the 500S&w(.500") will beat the 500L on velocity. but i figure that 1200fps is good enuff fer me and the deer!!! i shot my buddy's 500s&w in a handi rifle(i think it was with 440gr wfn gc with h110 )and all i can say is ....OWWWWWWWWWWWW, THAT THING HURTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i don't wanna try 50 alaskan:tango_face_crying:!!!!
 
#28 ·
My 2 cents.

I owned a handi in the 500 S&W, I have never owned a 45-70. I know shame on me. I too have owned a 445 SuperMag rifle and a 44 Mag handi which are much better suited pistol rounds for carbine use. The 357/358 is even better in my opinion due to a wider selection of bullets.

Most of the 45-70 advantages in a rifle over the 500 SW have already been covered by previous posts.

I think the biggest advantage the 45-70 has is versatility and cost.
It can be loaded from mild to wild. On the wild end it can hurt you and the target just like a 500 SW.
45-70 has a much better bullet selections and better commercial availability for ammo.
45-70 is available in a lot more platforms, single shots, lever guns, bolt actions and revolvers. Why anyone would want to hang on to one of those in a revolver in either cartridge when they pull the trigger is beyond me, but to each his/her own.

So in hindsight I would have probably gone the 45-70 route instead of the 500 SW had I known at the time. But I still got to play with one for a while and even used it one deer season. It is way more than you will need for a midwest whiteltail.
 
#29 ·
45-70/500 sw

i load my 45-70's with either a 405 gr FP or a 500 gr RN/FP cast bullet to 1300 fps and 1250 fps and shoot them in my Rem rolling block and or a 1873 Springfield SRC. i load my 450 Marlin with a Barnes 300 gr SSP bullet to 1900 fps and shoot it in my NEF Handi rifle. in my 458 SOCOM i load the Barnes 300 gr SSP to 1800 fps and shoot it in my DPMS 458 SOCOM AR 15. in my 500 S & W i load a 465 gr RN/FP cast bullet at 1250 fps and shoot it in my Handi Rifle. all of these rifles with the exception of the Rem rolling block are used by me when ground blind deer hunting here in the woods of NC. Very deadly combinations. works for me. no need to hotrod 45-70 or 500 S & W.....that's what the 450 Marlin is for. love hearing the whack of the bullet when smacking a whitetail. JimP.
 
#35 ·
just get yourself a 4570 ruger #1. I had a 4570 and a 458 #1 and there wasn't much difference between what I safely worked up to in the 4570 to the watered down factory 458s. Marlin will actually take some serious loads too but it gets to the point the lever wants to open on its own and even though theres no other pressure signs that kind of makes me nervous. Want to see something devastating on game (and water jugs) get yourself a 50 ak. Now that's a thumper on both ends. Full power loads make shooting my #1 458 with factory ammo plinking.
 
#33 ·
Have always viewed 500s&w (& 460sw) as more appropriate rifle cartridges yet have only one .500sw myself, in a revolver.

But also 4570 in same gun, plus levergun. Of course, in 3inch cyl BFR can use almost as big a bullet as desired. Seems like, generally, there would be better penetration from .458 heavy bullet

Also, fired Corbon 500sw high vel in revolver just ONCE, never again. Have downloaded 540g in BFR 4570 and it was great.

Have handloaded low vel 400-600g in 50ae revolver, really dont want to shoot more than that but will experiment more with 500sw sometime.

Wound channel in 500 cast bullet bigger than .458 of course in any gun. Dont think flat trajectory is the point with either tho. But yes on accuracy!
 
#37 ·
Of course, have thought about the 50ak alot, would be nice. Yet really enjoy not only the 458s but especially 4570 still. And for both, as mentioned by others, big variety of affordable bullets and still catch deals on those too.

I only have about 700 or so fifty cal. bullets in stock, but a lot more 458s, a few styles have not even got around to experimenting with yet. Need to cast my own, have a few moulds but have not yet.