I would like all opinions on why the .45-70 is a better cartridge choice for the handi.
You need to know that I'm a reloader and I also cast bullets.
You need to know that I'm a reloader and I also cast bullets.
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&W?
Reynolds
41 - 53 of 53 Posts
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
Naw 45 I knew what you were trying to say it was just not quite coming out right Actually All it takes is a little bit o firearms history. Just look at my posts in the bolt gun forum reguarding the .260 rem vs 6.5x55 swede. Or worse yet the 6.8spc.
Now that being said I was very skeptical about the 500 when introduced, I would say WHY what will this monstrocity kill that 454 won't. But after firing a rifle WOW these things are fun! Everybody should own one rifle that is.
The ol 45-70 aint gonna go away because there is a 50 cal round avalible but I also don't see the 500 going away anytime soon amazingly the handguns are sellin like hotcakes. If i,m not mistaken Taurus is also introducing one.
I think the 45-70,500 relationship is gonna end up like the 270,280 relationship witch one of those is better?
I was just kinda suprised at the level of emotion this topic brought about.
Naw 45 I knew what you were trying to say it was just not quite coming out right
Actually All it takes is a little bit o firearms history. Just look at my posts in the bolt gun forum reguarding the .260 rem vs 6.5x55 swede. Or worse yet the 6.8spc.Now that being said I was very skeptical about the 500 when introduced, I would say WHY what will this monstrocity kill that 454 won't. But after firing a rifle WOW these things are fun! Everybody should own one rifle that is.
The ol 45-70 aint gonna go away because there is a 50 cal round avalible but I also don't see the 500 going away anytime soon amazingly the handguns are sellin like hotcakes. If i,m not mistaken Taurus is also introducing one.
I think the 45-70,500 relationship is gonna end up like the 270,280 relationship witch one of those is better?
I was just kinda suprised at the level of emotion this topic brought about.
Joined
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2,779 Posts
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
Now who said the 50 Alaskan was not in the TC Encore?
SSK Industries :-D
I still like the 45-70 and oh yeah the 45-90's
Now who said the 50 Alaskan was not in the TC Encore?
SSK Industries :-D
I still like the 45-70 and oh yeah the 45-90's
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
I think the 45-70 may suffer capacity-wise with the heavier bullets, making the 45-90 a serious thought if you were wanting to send the big balls downrange. But, wouldnt the 500 even be more strapped for space on the heavy for caliber pills.
Anyone do the math yet on expansion ratios for these 2 with about 22 inch barrels. I think the 500 is and will be primarily a handgun cartridge, not a comparable for the 45-70.
Krochus, I think the point about age and history is that there is a big difference between reading it and experiencing it. For the most part, we live such a short life, most of our history knowledge is thru reading, so that which we experience should be held in higher esteem. Most of the posts on this thread were very rational. Pointing out the vast historic differences between these 2 cartridges is not being overly emotional, its a fact, and taking that into consideration is perfectly normal. Like I said way up in this debate, both are going to function equally within our ability to distinguish. If one should fail, the other probably would have also. Then you should have taken the 458 win mag - there aint no comparison with that one.
I think the 45-70 may suffer capacity-wise with the heavier bullets, making the 45-90 a serious thought if you were wanting to send the big balls downrange. But, wouldnt the 500 even be more strapped for space on the heavy for caliber pills.
Anyone do the math yet on expansion ratios for these 2 with about 22 inch barrels. I think the 500 is and will be primarily a handgun cartridge, not a comparable for the 45-70.
Krochus, I think the point about age and history is that there is a big difference between reading it and experiencing it. For the most part, we live such a short life, most of our history knowledge is thru reading, so that which we experience should be held in higher esteem. Most of the posts on this thread were very rational. Pointing out the vast historic differences between these 2 cartridges is not being overly emotional, its a fact, and taking that into consideration is perfectly normal. Like I said way up in this debate, both are going to function equally within our ability to distinguish. If one should fail, the other probably would have also. Then you should have taken the 458 win mag - there aint no comparison with that one.
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
I quit keeping up with the newest latest greatest. I have a 38-55, a 357 Max (finally got it shootin', I'll post on it) I'd love to have a 25-20 os a 32-20, a 32 H&R Mag would be perfection far as I'm concerned, I'd settle for a 45 ACP and keep my mouth shut. I;ve been around long enough, and been through enough that I'm completely aware that all that glitters is not gold, and that Barnum was right, "There's a sucker born every minute." (I'm not suggesting you are)
The latest magnum madness from Remchester has completely turned me off to the new offerings from the gun makers. I need a 300 Ultra Mag about like I need a 50 Browning, in fact I'd probably be more likely to own a 50 Browning than a 300 Ultra. Bigger is not always better, and those of us who are not seeking bigger are being left out in the cold, so as far as I'm concerned, the major manufactuer's will not ever see a penny of my money. They whine they are going broke, yet only cater to a small segment of the shooters in the nation. 300 Ultras????? 500 S%W's???? Let 'em go broke.
If there is anything to the emotion behind the 45-70 it is that. The 45-70 represents a known quality. It ain't sold with a bunch of hype behind it, it doesn't make any pretenses about what it is (though some owners do :wink: ) The 45-70 is stable. It is not just about history, it is like the Northern Star. it is a standard against which others are compared. Is the 500 a star or a comet?
Like it or not, shooters tend to be conservative. We tend to judge things against what has been and against the school af hard knocks. I'm sure there aer plenty aout there going wild over the 300 Ultra, the 500 SW and a host of the latest greatest. I'm willing to bet that most are under 35 and their kids are still running around with snot running out their nose, and they dont have any real hunting or field experience. And I don't think that folks who have a 500 are looking for a rifle to go with it, the whole point of the 500 would be to eliminate the rifle, but the sensible folks are looking at it and thinking, "If I need that much hadgun, I'll just carry my rifle".
Is the 45-70 any better than the 500? How would you prove it? Is the 500 better than the 45-70? How would you prove it? It is a choice. It is really like the old revolver/automatic arguements, to say one is better than another is nonsensical, the question is what are you going to do with it. A revolver makes a far better nightstand gun for a novice than an automatic does. If i'm gearing up to fight off Satans Horde, give me an autoloader. If I want to impress someone (including myself) with the size of my handgun, give me a 500 SW. If I want a good basic reliable rifle I can take anywhere, to do anything with, give me a 45-70.
You'll have a hard time changing my mind, the 500 SW is a penis extension and time is on my side. A hadgun is exactly that, a handgun. If I can't control it with one hand, it ain't a handgun anymore. If it weighs more than 3 pounds it ain't a handgun, if I have to wear it in ahoulder rig because hanging it on my belt pulls my britches off, it ain't a handgun. The 500 probably is better suited to the Handi, becasue when compared to what a handgun should be it is a rifle round stuck in stockless rifle.
Anything I wouldn't shoot with my 45 Colt, needs a rifle. I can readily kill deer and feed myself with a 45 Colt at 50 yards. If its' bigger or farther away than that, give me a rifle. And if the rifle don't say 30-30, 30-06 or 35 Whelen it's a novelty, and that includes the 45-70 so far as I'm concerned :grin:
Taurus is intorducing one???? People are friggin' nuts! I guess if that's what floats the boat........Krochus said:
I quit keeping up with the newest latest greatest. I have a 38-55, a 357 Max (finally got it shootin', I'll post on it) I'd love to have a 25-20 os a 32-20, a 32 H&R Mag would be perfection far as I'm concerned, I'd settle for a 45 ACP and keep my mouth shut. I;ve been around long enough, and been through enough that I'm completely aware that all that glitters is not gold, and that Barnum was right, "There's a sucker born every minute." (I'm not suggesting you are)
The latest magnum madness from Remchester has completely turned me off to the new offerings from the gun makers. I need a 300 Ultra Mag about like I need a 50 Browning, in fact I'd probably be more likely to own a 50 Browning than a 300 Ultra. Bigger is not always better, and those of us who are not seeking bigger are being left out in the cold, so as far as I'm concerned, the major manufactuer's will not ever see a penny of my money. They whine they are going broke, yet only cater to a small segment of the shooters in the nation. 300 Ultras????? 500 S%W's???? Let 'em go broke.
If there is anything to the emotion behind the 45-70 it is that. The 45-70 represents a known quality. It ain't sold with a bunch of hype behind it, it doesn't make any pretenses about what it is (though some owners do :wink: ) The 45-70 is stable. It is not just about history, it is like the Northern Star. it is a standard against which others are compared. Is the 500 a star or a comet?
Like it or not, shooters tend to be conservative. We tend to judge things against what has been and against the school af hard knocks. I'm sure there aer plenty aout there going wild over the 300 Ultra, the 500 SW and a host of the latest greatest. I'm willing to bet that most are under 35 and their kids are still running around with snot running out their nose, and they dont have any real hunting or field experience. And I don't think that folks who have a 500 are looking for a rifle to go with it, the whole point of the 500 would be to eliminate the rifle, but the sensible folks are looking at it and thinking, "If I need that much hadgun, I'll just carry my rifle".
Is the 45-70 any better than the 500? How would you prove it? Is the 500 better than the 45-70? How would you prove it? It is a choice. It is really like the old revolver/automatic arguements, to say one is better than another is nonsensical, the question is what are you going to do with it. A revolver makes a far better nightstand gun for a novice than an automatic does. If i'm gearing up to fight off Satans Horde, give me an autoloader. If I want to impress someone (including myself) with the size of my handgun, give me a 500 SW. If I want a good basic reliable rifle I can take anywhere, to do anything with, give me a 45-70.
You'll have a hard time changing my mind, the 500 SW is a penis extension and time is on my side. A hadgun is exactly that, a handgun. If I can't control it with one hand, it ain't a handgun anymore. If it weighs more than 3 pounds it ain't a handgun, if I have to wear it in ahoulder rig because hanging it on my belt pulls my britches off, it ain't a handgun. The 500 probably is better suited to the Handi, becasue when compared to what a handgun should be it is a rifle round stuck in stockless rifle.
Anything I wouldn't shoot with my 45 Colt, needs a rifle. I can readily kill deer and feed myself with a 45 Colt at 50 yards. If its' bigger or farther away than that, give me a rifle. And if the rifle don't say 30-30, 30-06 or 35 Whelen it's a novelty, and that includes the 45-70 so far as I'm concerned :grin:
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162 Posts
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
So once again, the .45-70 wins. I actually think the .500 s&w is much, MUCH more 'justifiable' than the .460 s&w, given what we already have (.45-70 and .450 marlin) due to that .700 gr monster and the slightly larger frontal area.
S&W is very late to the game. Magnum research made a .460 revolver a long time ago - it's called the .45-70, and it's chambered in the BFR. :-D
http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=RB2
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=500MSS2&category=Revolver
Yes, but the .460 is a .452-bullet .45-70, whereas the .45-70 is a .458-bullet .45-70. The latter is highly preferred, it would seem, since .458 bullets have been made and made well for a long time to perform well out of rifles at high/rifle velocities (.458 lott, .458 winmag, etc.), whereas .451 bullets are pistol bullets, and will disintegrate at rifle velocities, except for the very few that will be designed specifically for the .460.
So once again, the .45-70 wins. I actually think the .500 s&w is much, MUCH more 'justifiable' than the .460 s&w, given what we already have (.45-70 and .450 marlin) due to that .700 gr monster and the slightly larger frontal area.
S&W is very late to the game. Magnum research made a .460 revolver a long time ago - it's called the .45-70, and it's chambered in the BFR. :-D
No, Taurus is introducing FOUR revolvers in .500 S&W mag - a 10", a 6", a 4", and a 2" ! :shock:
http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=RB2
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=500MSS2&category=Revolver
.
Boy have I missed out on a bit here, been out in the woods with stick and string chasing deer (no luck )
I think that the gun industry has really gone through a change here in the last 10 years. Before that, not everyone had or could afford a chronograph and the challange to sqweeze a few more fps out of a cartidge just wasnt there. The only way to judge a cartidge was accuracy and performance on game. The .30-30 would fill most peoples needs for both accuracy and killing ability, if you needed more range you could go up to a .270/30-06. Looking back at the .348 and even the newer .356/.375 you had more power but also more recoil, when you already have a gun that does all that you need with lower recoil why change. Recoil pads werent really used that I know of. I think that Alaska is the only place that the .348 really survived, it was needed to get the desirable performance.
I think that the desire of getting more fps has had a side effect which has been an increased tollerance to recoil. I think that if the .45-70 had the recoil it has now (buffalo bore and garrett loads) back in the 20-30's it would have died out real fast. People just didnt see the need for that much recoil especially with no recoil pads. Now we have all the magnums to compare to and nice soft rubber recoil pad on the butt of the gun the heavy hitting .45-70 is acceptable.
For me I dont really need a .45-70 or .500 (I live in Arkansas) but that isnt the point but if Marlin could figure out a way to chamber the .500 s&w in a lever action then I will be getting one (dont really know why but something about a .50 cal leveraction just sounds fun)
you right about me just being able to read about older cartidges and the way it was back when but I dont have many other ways to find out about them.
Also forgot to mention that the .35 rem is better then both the .45-70 or the .500 :twisted:
Boy have I missed out on a bit here, been out in the woods with stick and string chasing deer (no luck
) I think that the gun industry has really gone through a change here in the last 10 years. Before that, not everyone had or could afford a chronograph and the challange to sqweeze a few more fps out of a cartidge just wasnt there. The only way to judge a cartidge was accuracy and performance on game. The .30-30 would fill most peoples needs for both accuracy and killing ability, if you needed more range you could go up to a .270/30-06. Looking back at the .348 and even the newer .356/.375 you had more power but also more recoil, when you already have a gun that does all that you need with lower recoil why change. Recoil pads werent really used that I know of. I think that Alaska is the only place that the .348 really survived, it was needed to get the desirable performance.
I think that the desire of getting more fps has had a side effect which has been an increased tollerance to recoil. I think that if the .45-70 had the recoil it has now (buffalo bore and garrett loads) back in the 20-30's it would have died out real fast. People just didnt see the need for that much recoil especially with no recoil pads. Now we have all the magnums to compare to and nice soft rubber recoil pad on the butt of the gun the heavy hitting .45-70 is acceptable.
For me I dont really need a .45-70 or .500 (I live in Arkansas) but that isnt the point but if Marlin could figure out a way to chamber the .500 s&w in a lever action then I will be getting one (dont really know why but something about a .50 cal leveraction just sounds fun)
you right about me just being able to read about older cartidges and the way it was back when but I dont have many other ways to find out about them.
Also forgot to mention that the .35 rem is better then both the .45-70 or the .500 :twisted:
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
Some reminiscing on 50 vs 45 cal in history. The Army searched for a replacement for the 50-70 500 and found the 45-70 500 was ballisticly superior, hence it became tthe standard infantry round in 1873 (as the 45Colt was adapted in cavalry as a metallic revolver cartridge rhe same year). With the Sandy Hooks Test results, the 45-70 405 loading became the calvary standard ;oading.
Bill Ruger brought out his #1 and the old Trap Door shooters bugged him to bring out a 45-70 chambering since they could work up some nice duplex BP loads in a strong firearm. He did and chambered it in the 45-70 500 military chamber dimensions. This did not meet the 2.55" COL for the
factory produced 45-70 405 smokeless.
Somewhere in the late 70's he reverted to the SAAMI spec chambers.
My 1975 #3 has the original long chamber and the 500gr Hornady load will go 2.93"COL. Marlin introduced the 1895 when they realized Ruger's success.
Some reminiscing on 50 vs 45 cal in history. The Army searched for a replacement for the 50-70 500 and found the 45-70 500 was ballisticly superior, hence it became tthe standard infantry round in 1873 (as the 45Colt was adapted in cavalry as a metallic revolver cartridge rhe same year). With the Sandy Hooks Test results, the 45-70 405 loading became the calvary standard ;oading.
Bill Ruger brought out his #1 and the old Trap Door shooters bugged him to bring out a 45-70 chambering since they could work up some nice duplex BP loads in a strong firearm. He did and chambered it in the 45-70 500 military chamber dimensions. This did not meet the 2.55" COL for the
factory produced 45-70 405 smokeless.
Somewhere in the late 70's he reverted to the SAAMI spec chambers.
My 1975 #3 has the original long chamber and the 500gr Hornady load will go 2.93"COL. Marlin introduced the 1895 when they realized Ruger's success.
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
There are a lot of new cartridges coming out like the .17 mach2, 17 hmr, all the wssm cartridges in 223 to 300 win mag, the 45 gap, 460 extreme and the 500 S&W. Heres the question! Are any of these new cartridges better than the calibers before? I have a 22 that shoots shorts, long and long rifle and a 22 mag! Do I need a 17 Rimfire? No and probably never will because of what I already own. I don't own a big bore rifle and I was in the market for one and after reading about the 500 S$W it intrigued me and I bought one in the handi rifle! Does it cost more to shoot and reload?
Yes but I don't care! Does it make a bigger hole than the 45/70? I think so! Will the animal killed with a 45/70 or a 500 know the difference? No!
My point is that if I owned a couple big bore rifles or hand guns then I probably wouldn't be interested in the 500 but since I don't, Then why not buy the 500. I am sure that more bullets and load data will be available for the 500 and it to will have it's own following!! Will it surpass the 45/70? Never..!! But I believe it is here to stay just like the 17 hmr..! If I didn't have my 22 mag I would own a 17 because I like it! So far 500 sales are up and for a hard hitting short range brush gun especially in a Handi is going to be hard to beat! Why is the new craze for the 300 win mag rather than the 30-06? Because the 300 has alitte more THUMP!! I'm not knocking any caliber I just feel that the 500 has alittle more thump!! IF not over the 45/70 now, I believe it will in the future! Just my thoughts!!
Have a great day!!
There are a lot of new cartridges coming out like the .17 mach2, 17 hmr, all the wssm cartridges in 223 to 300 win mag, the 45 gap, 460 extreme and the 500 S&W. Heres the question! Are any of these new cartridges better than the calibers before? I have a 22 that shoots shorts, long and long rifle and a 22 mag! Do I need a 17 Rimfire? No and probably never will because of what I already own. I don't own a big bore rifle and I was in the market for one and after reading about the 500 S$W it intrigued me and I bought one in the handi rifle! Does it cost more to shoot and reload?
Yes but I don't care! Does it make a bigger hole than the 45/70? I think so! Will the animal killed with a 45/70 or a 500 know the difference? No!
My point is that if I owned a couple big bore rifles or hand guns then I probably wouldn't be interested in the 500 but since I don't, Then why not buy the 500. I am sure that more bullets and load data will be available for the 500 and it to will have it's own following!! Will it surpass the 45/70? Never..!! But I believe it is here to stay just like the 17 hmr..! If I didn't have my 22 mag I would own a 17 because I like it! So far 500 sales are up and for a hard hitting short range brush gun especially in a Handi is going to be hard to beat! Why is the new craze for the 300 win mag rather than the 30-06? Because the 300 has alitte more THUMP!! I'm not knocking any caliber I just feel that the 500 has alittle more thump!! IF not over the 45/70 now, I believe it will in the future! Just my thoughts!!
Have a great day!!
Joined
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1,037 Posts
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
Probably the biggest advantage is that you can get a functional Springfield Trapdoor in .45-70 and kill game with it.
Hunting is a very ancient and primitive way of obtaining meat, that some people derive great satisfaction doing. It stands to reason that using ancient and primitive tools will enhance the satisfaction.
If stepping back in time has nothing to do with it, then we'd all get our meat from the grocery store using a plastic debit card. And someday, it will be considered ancient and primitive to buy meat that is actually derived from animals.
Probably the biggest advantage is that you can get a functional Springfield Trapdoor in .45-70 and kill game with it.
Hunting is a very ancient and primitive way of obtaining meat, that some people derive great satisfaction doing. It stands to reason that using ancient and primitive tools will enhance the satisfaction.
If stepping back in time has nothing to do with it, then we'd all get our meat from the grocery store using a plastic debit card. And someday, it will be considered ancient and primitive to buy meat that is actually derived from animals.
why is the .45-70 better than the .500 S&am
45-70 all the way !
The 500 S&W is maxed out/optimized in long pistol barrels.
Very little performance is gained in rifle length barrels.
Not so with the 45-70; when pushed to the maximum safe level for modern (Ruger #1, Handi-Rifles, bolt conversions, NOT Marlin/Winchester lever guns) firearms the 45-70 is capable of over 4000 ft/lb of muzzle energy (375 H&H territory !); the 500 S&W is not even close to this. The "Marlin" lever-gun level 45-70 loads exceed the muzzle energy potential of the 500 S&W.
What does the 500 S&W offer over the 45-70 ? Virtually nothing except .042 in bullet diameter...all this does is create a WORSE trajectory over the rainbow-like 45-70...neither round will ever be a long-range proposition; for that one should get one of the following: 300 WEATHERBY Mag, 300 Remington Ultra Mag (not short-action mag), or a 30-378 WEATHERBY Mag.
Personally, I ONLY use my King-Kong Ruger#1 (from the Hodgdon manual ONLY in the 45-70; all other manuals seem to UNDERLOAD this cartridge) loads of 350 gr @2300+fps and 400gr at 2100+ fps in my Handi Rifle.
For me, anything less than a max load is A WASTE OF CASE CAPACITY.
If you don't need a full power 45-70, I reach for a firearm with a less intense cartridge.
I usually choose to properly match the firearm/cartridge to the game persued.
My motto: there is NO SUCH THING as too MUCH gun.
Recoil-Schmecoil......
I actually shoot my 458 Lott for FUN !
45-70 all the way !
The 500 S&W is maxed out/optimized in long pistol barrels.
Very little performance is gained in rifle length barrels.
Not so with the 45-70; when pushed to the maximum safe level for modern (Ruger #1, Handi-Rifles, bolt conversions, NOT Marlin/Winchester lever guns) firearms the 45-70 is capable of over 4000 ft/lb of muzzle energy (375 H&H territory !); the 500 S&W is not even close to this. The "Marlin" lever-gun level 45-70 loads exceed the muzzle energy potential of the 500 S&W.
What does the 500 S&W offer over the 45-70 ? Virtually nothing except .042 in bullet diameter...all this does is create a WORSE trajectory over the rainbow-like 45-70...neither round will ever be a long-range proposition; for that one should get one of the following: 300 WEATHERBY Mag, 300 Remington Ultra Mag (not short-action mag), or a 30-378 WEATHERBY Mag.
Personally, I ONLY use my King-Kong Ruger#1 (from the Hodgdon manual ONLY in the 45-70; all other manuals seem to UNDERLOAD this cartridge) loads of 350 gr @2300+fps and 400gr at 2100+ fps in my Handi Rifle.
For me, anything less than a max load is A WASTE OF CASE CAPACITY.
If you don't need a full power 45-70, I reach for a firearm with a less intense cartridge.
I usually choose to properly match the firearm/cartridge to the game persued.
My motto: there is NO SUCH THING as too MUCH gun.
Recoil-Schmecoil......
I actually shoot my 458 Lott for FUN !
Joined
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383 Posts
Sewer pipe.
HI Friends
We hear barrel that look like a sewer pipe inside! When my NEF 10 ga. slug barrel lays on the bed by a 45/70 the 10 looks like a sewer pipe on the outside and resembles one on the outside. I would hat to dress a gut shot deer with this slug. It would be a real mess inside and outside.
Don Jackson Remington Magnum
HI Friends
We hear barrel that look like a sewer pipe inside! When my NEF 10 ga. slug barrel lays on the bed by a 45/70 the 10 looks like a sewer pipe on the outside and resembles one on the outside. I would hat to dress a gut shot deer with this slug. It would be a real mess inside and outside.
Don Jackson Remington Magnum
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